FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[art76]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

[wm4]

Football participation numbers shrinking bring up a good point Bench. Mike Grant has noted that youth football participation is down 30-40% in grades 4-8 in EP. That is reflected elsewhere as well. I have heard from a couple of other HS coaches I know well, that Grant isn't exaggerating by any means. They don't have exact numbers to point to like EP, but they are facing the same circumstances. If the pool shrinks, the numbers will erode even further for some of these smaller college programs.

This is a huge factor coming down the pipeline.  I think top teams in D3 will still draw the best players to their programs, but in the next 2-5 years, I think we'll see roster sizes drop across D3 and some schools may face some difficult decisions. 

[GoldandBlueBU]

It's an interesting time for sure. 

Bench's suggestion of allowing teams to compete up in certain sports makes a lot of sense to me...Oz's relegation model also could help, though as AO metioned, I don't think that additional divisions are the answer.  We don't need another version of D3.

The BU's and Concordias of D3 end up in a bit of a no-man's land in the relegation model.  Most year's, they'll clobber the lower rung of the MIAC, but only perhaps 2-3 yrs out of 10 will they be able to compete with a UST / SJU. (that was the UST of a few years ago - they've elevated their playing level, IMO - not sure just how often BU will be realisically competitive with them). 

Flip it to basketball, though, and there is a lot more parity.  Football is a unique creature.  It's interesting to hear people's thoughts / perspectives on fixes, though I'd like to hear more from the un-represented MIAC teams.

[AO]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

The other thing that isn't being mentioned is the possibility that the current crop of D3 football recruits might just be more willing to sit on the bench for a great team than to actually play for a lesser team.  D1 women's basketball has certainly had this issue, whereas the men are more likely to seek playing time.

[57Johnnie]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

The other thing that isn't being mentioned is the possibility that the current crop of D3 football recruits might just be more willing to sit on the bench for a great team than to actually play for a lesser team.  D1 women's basketball has certainly had this issue, whereas the men are more likely to seek playing time.

Lots of Johnnie team captains that never played a down.

[GoldandBlueBU]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

Right - that caliber of an athlete has just about a 0% chance of landing at Bethel.  My point is that they have been, and I think will continue to ocassionally have teams that can make a deep run and be right up in that top 6-8 at the end of the year, so I wouldn't necessarily want them to end up in a "lower" version of D3, so I think that allowing single sports to "play up" a division or two makes more sense for everyone in the same boat as BU.

[miac952]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

Right - that caliber of an athlete has just about a 0% chance of landing at Bethel.  My point is that they have been, and I think will continue to occasionally have teams that can make a deep run and be right up in that top 6-8 at the end of the year, so I wouldn't necessarily want them to end up in a "lower" version of D3, so I think that allowing single sports to "play up" a division or two makes more sense for everyone in the same boat as BU.

The odds of attracting that caliber athlete noted above is pretty close to 0% across the entire MIAC. The closest talent we have seen comparable to the above in the last decade was hidden in a veer-option offense up in Moorhead. Other than that, maybe Dowdle at TE, who stumbled his way through the catholic school pipeline to UST when he decided to not go the water polo route.

[USTBench]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

The other thing that isn't being mentioned is the possibility that the current crop of D3 football recruits might just be more willing to sit on the bench for a great team than to actually play for a lesser team.  D1 women's basketball has certainly had this issue, whereas the men are more likely to seek playing time.

Lots of Johnnie team captains that never played a down.

I think there's a bit more to DIII football than playing time. I think everyone goes into it with the intent of seeing the field, usually hoping that if that doesn't happen much by your sophomore year, you'll probably see the field substantially by your junior year. But if a handful of freshmen at your position come in that are a few inches taller and a few tenths of second faster, when it gets down to deciding who gets to see the field, especially when the 2s are out there, coaches opt to develop youth as opposed to rewarding loyalty and hard work. You can't really blame them either.

Most juniors in that position either decide not to play or stick it out and become a "team guy." Their teammates root for them, but getting any significant playing time is just not on the horizon. I've seen very few guys transfer from one DIII school to another, it's not unprecedented, but it is rare.

I was in that spot, and transferring to Hamline (or MAC or Carleton if I had the grades) just so I could get more DIII playing time seemed like a silly thing to do, because it's not REALLY why I was there.

I imagine there's a ton of kids in that same predicament at SJU and UST. They were all-conference or all-state, a little undersized or a step slower than the elite talent that went D1, and the best teams in DIII came knocking at their door. They showed up at camp on the first day, and not only where there 3 or 4 kids at their position who were also all-conference or all-state in their class, but 2 or 3 in the class above, and the class above that, and the class above that. Hamline would LOVE to have that kid, but that kid had a better opportunity and wanted to see if he could hack it. Fasching and Caruso won't know what they have in that kid until he shows how he adapts to the college game, but by that time, their mind is made up. By that kid's junior year, he could probably start for 220 of the 240 schools in Division III, but unfortunately he's either holding a clipboard or has moved on from that part of his life.

[USTBench]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

Right - that caliber of an athlete has just about a 0% chance of landing at Bethel.  My point is that they have been, and I think will continue to occasionally have teams that can make a deep run and be right up in that top 6-8 at the end of the year, so I wouldn't necessarily want them to end up in a "lower" version of D3, so I think that allowing single sports to "play up" a division or two makes more sense for everyone in the same boat as BU.

The odds of attracting that caliber athlete noted above is pretty close to 0% across the entire MIAC. The closest talent we have seen comparable to the above in the last decade was hidden in a veer-option offense up in Moorhead. Other than that, maybe Dowdle at TE, who stumbled his way through the catholic school pipeline to UST when he decided to not go the water polo route.

I disagree. Zylstras and Thielens fall under the radar occasionally, especially if they're playing non-metro or 9-man football. NDSU has done a phenomenal job at identifying those guys, so they're fewer and farther between, they have every bit the talent of an elite Division 1 athlete, but numbers tend to look a little inflated when you're facing a 120lb 8th grader at cornerback in a varsity game, so they fall to a D2 or D3 school.

Griffin Neal played at Fargo South, which has been running the wishbone/triple-option/veer as long as Concordia has been running it, so it's doubtful anyone really knew what they had in him until it was too late. Unfortunately, Neal was also in the same age-bracket as Carson Wentz, so I doubt anybody at the FCS level really kicked the tires on an option QB with the hopes he could play a pro-style offense which is what all the FCS teams on the 1-29 corridor pretty much play with the exception of USD who plays more of a spread offense.

[AO]

I disagree. Zylstras and Thielens fall under the radar occasionally, especially if they're playing non-metro or 9-man football. NDSU has done a phenomenal job at identifying those guys, so they're fewer and farther between, they have every bit the talent of an elite Division 1 athlete, but numbers tend to look a little inflated when you're facing a 120lb 8th grader at cornerback in a varsity game, so they fall to a D2 or D3 school.

Griffin Neal played at Fargo South, which has been running the wishbone/triple-option/veer as long as Concordia has been running it, so it's doubtful anyone really knew what they had in him until it was too late. Unfortunately, Neal was also in the same age-bracket as Carson Wentz, so I doubt anybody at the FCS level really kicked the tires on an option QB with the hopes he could play a pro-style offense which is what all the FCS teams on the 1-29 corridor pretty much play with the exception of USD who plays more of a spread offense.

That's a fair point, you certainly will just get lucky sometimes with kids that are under-recruited.  I was just saying that I don't think Hamline or Carleton's main disadvantage in recruiting is their football budget.

[wm4]

For kicks....

Average winning margin in 2013 MIAC games, 19.2 points.  Total blowouts of 50 or more points, 2 games.

Average winning margin in 2017 MIAC games, 32.3 points.  Total blowouts of 50 or more points, 7 games.

Going back 10 years...

Average winning margin in 2007 MIAC games, 22.0 points (dang, was Olaf a scoring machine that year).  Total blowouts of 50 or more points, 2 games.

[OldAuggie]

Following this at a rate that allows me to sleep at night and not feel like I am stealing from my employer; I will say that I finally see something tangible. Yes, HS participation is way down even now before this depleted wave of middle school kids hits varsity age. I have spent the last 15 years of fall Friday nights at local HS games and just the last few years watched roster sizes drop off at our HS in the NW metro. I am saying that we went from a dominant semifinals or deeper team each year to a 0-4 team this year with a thin bench. I agree this wide spread trend is possibly why we have a drop off in talent with the "have nots" in the MIAC and the Blue Blood team's ability to maintain the highest level of quality talent. The pool of players is much smaller now and the decisions made by these kids are totally different now than when any of us played.  Hockey and lacrosse are attracting a larger number of the kids (and parents) that would have played football in previous years. This is supported with a conversation I had with my neighbor upon returning from a football parent meeting this summer as well as from the actual kids at a HS prom event that I was involved with last year.  A good friend of mine has been noticing large flag football leagues as an option for kids in his neighborhood. I have not noticed these flag football games yet in our area but it might be the future of football.

[UWO Titan 78]

Following this at a rate that allows me to sleep at night and not feel like I am stealing from my employer; I will say that I finally see something tangible. Yes, HS participation is way down even now before this depleted wave of middle school kids hits varsity age. I have spent the last 15 years of fall Friday nights at local HS games and just the last few years watched roster sizes drop off at our HS in the NW metro. I am saying that we went from a dominant semifinals or deeper team each year to a 0-4 team this year with a thin bench. I agree this wide spread trend is possibly why we have a drop off in talent with the "have nots" in the MIAC and the Blue Blood team's ability to maintain the highest level of quality talent. The pool of players is much smaller now and the decisions made by these kids are totally different now than when any of us played.  Hockey and lacrosse are attracting a larger number of the kids (and parents) that would have played football in previous years. This is supported with a conversation I had with my neighbor upon returning from a football parent meeting this summer as well as from the actual kids at a HS prom event that I was involved with last year.  A good friend of mine has been noticing large flag football leagues as an option for kids in his neighborhood. I have not noticed these flag football games yet in our area but it might be the future of football.

Here in suburban Chicago we have seen a similar decline. I coached my son throughout his youth tackle football days. He is a senior in high school on a good football program. We have 65 kids on the Varsity, 28 on JV (Sophs), and 35 on Frosh. Other HS programs in the area have similar numbers or a little below ours. But the numbers in the youth league are dwindling. In 2009 (my son's first year), we were one of the largest youth programs in the state and we had 360 players in our tackle program (3rd-8th grade). This year, we have about 125. We have offered a flag option that kids can now play until jr. high. Those numbers are up, but I don't know how many of those kids will transfer their talents to high school tackle football.

[OzJohnnie]

Change is hard when you love the tradition, but the present state of the MIAC most likely won't survive another 5 years of this level of lopsidedness.

As a BU supporter, my glasses might have a different shade of rose about them...

When Bethel joined the MIAC (read, shortly before I played there), we were ecstatic to beat Macalester - or better said, not be the team they beat to break their losing streak, and any other one or two games for the remainder of the year. I have seen the rise of BU football to a point of competitiveness, while not to the point of investment the Johnnies and the Tommies have made. It's akin to drag racing - how fast do you want to go? Depends on how much money you want to spend. Can an underdog/underfunded program win with heart and good coaching? Yep, but not at the Stag Bowl level as it is now. BU has gotten to the quarter finals, but the reality is that until more money is thrown at the program, that's the glass ceiling the Royals face. I would love to see BU hoist the Walnut and Bronze trophy at the end of the year, but it would take a very special season for that to happen in today's D3 Football market.

BU might be able to improve the facilities a bit and attract another recruit or two but I don't think you're getting a Cecil Shorts or Jasper Collins who beat you in 2010. 

The other thing that isn't being mentioned is the possibility that the current crop of D3 football recruits might just be more willing to sit on the bench for a great team than to actually play for a lesser team.  D1 women's basketball has certainly had this issue, whereas the men are more likely to seek playing time.

Lots of Johnnie team captains that never played a down.

Yes, limits to bench sizes or similar would push a big decision on the future of the Johnnie culture where anyone who wanted to suit up (and did the work to earn it, etc) could at home.  And every senior is a captain, of course, as a reward sticking it out regardless of the individual accolades.

[Robert Zimmerman]

You've heard John's jokes before, but here is a highlight reel of some of his favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjaKpEa0zK4&feature=youtu.be