FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[AO]

Yikes, would hate to see the Tommies without a conference.  For some reason, I doubt the UMAC will extend an invite if that happens. 

[art76]

And they're off...

Really hoping this doesn't happen but seems like it has momentum.

http://www.startribune.com/miac-rivals-plot-ouster-of-st-thomas/508145182/

Oh my, just when you thought the MIAC was becoming a "power league", vying with the WIAC for number 1 status as a conference in D3 football, along come the distractors. Look, if Bethel can stay in the game with their limited resources athletically, other teams around the league ought to be able to as well.

[SaintsFAN]

WOW... Changing bylaws to kick them out? 

Maybe St Thomas and Thomas More can create a conference of their own. 

[Ron Boerger]

WOW... Changing bylaws to kick them out? 

Maybe St Thomas and Thomas More can create a conference of their own.

In the NAIA?

[SaintsFAN]

WOW... Changing bylaws to kick them out? 

Maybe St Thomas and Thomas More can create a conference of their own.

In the NAIA?

No.  I'm hopeful they are still monitoring happenings in Division Three.  NAIA was a worst case scenario..

[miac952]

It's bizarre that this is the year of all years. UST was beaten by SJU and Bethel and should have been beaten by Gustavus. Over the last couple years Football, Hockey, Basketball, and Baseball the conference is very competitive with a lot of parity at the top.

It has me wonder if St Olaf has a an offer in hand from the Midwest Conference and they are stating they will leave unless this is done?

This would force the hand to D1 for UST if it goes through. The path to become a Butler, Drake, or San Diego with non-scholarship football would seem most likely.

[jknezek]

Can anyone think of a similar revolt in DIII? I know the PAC and TMC divorced in something of a kick out moment, but there were some NCAA issues backing that and TMC wasn't a traditional and long standing PAC founder while at the same time they were a geographic orphan. Is there another case like this one?

I get that in DIII conferences are more organized by mission and values (and generally cost cutting geography) than in DI, but to take the stance that a long time founding member no longer matches the mission and values of the other schools so they need to be booted by a change in bylaws is... morbidly fascinating? Kind of like trying to take your eyes off a train wreck.

I think I'm going to be riveted to this soap opera for a while if it goes on. Especially since only lax holds any spring interest for me. Part of me wants to see this go through because it would be really, really interesting to see what happens next, and generally I'm a big believer that DIII conferences should align by mission and values and not just geography and convenience, but STU is a founding member of the MIAC. Yes, that's a selfish perspective for my own entertainment and I highly doubt it matches what is best for student athletes at STU or across the MIAC.

In reality, despite the entertainment value, I just can't imagine trying to boot them regardless of how dominant they may or may not be in athletics, and especially not with a fig leaf over the real complaint by throwing in a "changing mission and values" argument.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Can anyone think of a similar revolt in DIII? I know the PAC and TMC divorced in something of a kick out moment, but there were some NCAA issues backing that and TMC wasn't a traditional and long standing PAC founder while at the same time they were a geographic orphan. Is there another case like this one?

I get that in DIII conferences are more organized by mission and values (and generally cost cutting geography) than in DI, but to take the stance that a long time founding member no longer matches the mission and values of the other schools so they need to be booted by a change in bylaws is... morbidly fascinating? Kind of like trying to take your eyes off a train wreck.

I think I'm going to be riveted to this soap opera for a while if it goes on. Especially since only lax holds any spring interest for me. Part of me wants to see this go through because it would be really, really interesting to see what happens next, and generally I'm a big believer that DIII conferences should align by mission and values and not just geography and convenience, but STU is a founding member of the MIAC. I just can't imagine trying to boot them regardless of how dominant they may or may not be in athletics, and especially not with a fig leaf over the real complaint by throwing in a "changing mission and values" argument.

Holy crap!  I've been largely absent from the boards / D3 happenings for awhile due to family and professional commitments, but I just stumbled across this story via the D3football facebook page.  Zoinks!

[jknezek]

Can anyone think of a similar revolt in DIII? I know the PAC and TMC divorced in something of a kick out moment, but there were some NCAA issues backing that and TMC wasn't a traditional and long standing PAC founder while at the same time they were a geographic orphan. Is there another case like this one?

I get that in DIII conferences are more organized by mission and values (and generally cost cutting geography) than in DI, but to take the stance that a long time founding member no longer matches the mission and values of the other schools so they need to be booted by a change in bylaws is... morbidly fascinating? Kind of like trying to take your eyes off a train wreck.

I think I'm going to be riveted to this soap opera for a while if it goes on. Especially since only lax holds any spring interest for me. Part of me wants to see this go through because it would be really, really interesting to see what happens next, and generally I'm a big believer that DIII conferences should align by mission and values and not just geography and convenience, but STU is a founding member of the MIAC. I just can't imagine trying to boot them regardless of how dominant they may or may not be in athletics, and especially not with a fig leaf over the real complaint by throwing in a "changing mission and values" argument.

Holy crap!  I've been largely absent from the boards / D3 happenings for awhile due to family and professional commitments, but I just stumbled across this story via the D3football facebook page.  Zoinks!

Me too. It came across my Facebook feed this a.m. and I was instantly hooked. My time for DIII sports following has dropped to almost nothing thanks to family commitments, but this is too interesting to ignore.

[johnnie_esq]

I want to chime in on this!

First off, Reusse is a phenomenal troll.  He is one of the few people that can make the folks on Summit & Cretin a sympathetic bunch.

In so doing, he is shifting what is the argument is really all about:  institutional mission and philosophy. Up until the 1990s, the MIAC consisted of small liberal arts college whose missions in undergraduate educations largely mirrored one another.  The schools were differentiated only by their locations and setting and their religious affiliations. 

That began to change in the late 1980s/early 1990s for St. Thomas, when CST became UST and the college invested significant resources into post-graduate programs, largely out of a fear that they would be left behind as Hamline and St. Mary's announced investments into graduate programs and/or adult education.  In essence, the Toms reasoned they needed to grow to survive.  Institutionally, that led to a full-court press to develop graduate programs, and within 15 years they were awarding MBAs, JDs, and other graduate degrees serving to a working adult population.

All those investments very clearly paid off, but it created a vicious cycle: the graduate programs increased the geographical footprint of the school, which increased enrollment, but required further enrollment to feed the machine of both graduate and undergraduate students. 

To date, St. Thomas (6200 undergrad/3700 graduate) educationally looks more like Marquette (8400 undergrad/3200 graduate) and Creighton (4200 undergrad/4200 graduate). Their graduate programs are a significant focus of their educational mission, and they appear to use graduate and undergraduate resources interchangeably, which is a very wise organizational decision, but this looks nothing like the rest of the MIAC's institutional setup, who have remained small undergraduate-focused liberal arts colleges.  Yes, Hamline and Augsburg and Bethel and even St. John's have graduate programs, but none of  these schools can be accused of using these programs as anything other than a reasonable extension of themselves; whereas UST has made the institutional decision to use its graduate programs to bring it to another institutional tier.

In essence, the Tommies are not just doing it, they are flaunting it.  They don't just get a radio network, they spring for WCCO.  They don't just promote an AD, they hire a B1G caliber AD. 

But athletics is a pretty good indication of the flaunting.  Since 2000, only three schools have won the All-Sports Trophy:  UST, SJU, and Gustavus; and the last time UST didn't win it for men or women was in 2006-2007, when SJU and GAC shared the titles.  None of this is to blame UST for its success or its institutional decisions, but for a majority of a conference who offers sports as a mere opportunity for their student body to participate, UST is playing a whole different game.

It isn't about football.  It's truly about institutional focus.  A SJU classmate and I had been chatting that this was on the horizon for a while.  With the MWC now having an opening, this is a very real threat; if the St. Olafs and Carletons and Macalesters are not heeded to put some caps on how MIAC schools see their sports, they could leave; then do you think Bethel, Hamline and Augsburg want to be left alone in a conference with SJU and UST?  They wouldn't be able to compete in such an arms race.  Make no mistake, SJU should be on notice, too-- but it isn't about beating someone 90-0; it's entirely about how you do it, and the schools on the bottom end are tired of being the Washington Generals. 

[Caz Bombers]

Just lame as hell actions from those other MIAC schools. Just for THINKING about this, UST should beat all of these teams 200-0 until the sun goes out.

[doolittledog]

Can anyone think of a similar revolt in DIII? I know the PAC and TMC divorced in something of a kick out moment, but there were some NCAA issues backing that and TMC wasn't a traditional and long standing PAC founder while at the same time they were a geographic orphan. Is there another case like this one?

I get that in DIII conferences are more organized by mission and values (and generally cost cutting geography) than in DI, but to take the stance that a long time founding member no longer matches the mission and values of the other schools so they need to be booted by a change in bylaws is... morbidly fascinating? Kind of like trying to take your eyes off a train wreck.

I think I'm going to be riveted to this soap opera for a while if it goes on. Especially since only lax holds any spring interest for me. Part of me wants to see this go through because it would be really, really interesting to see what happens next, and generally I'm a big believer that DIII conferences should align by mission and values and not just geography and convenience, but STU is a founding member of the MIAC. Yes, that's a selfish perspective for my own entertainment and I highly doubt it matches what is best for student athletes at STU or across the MIAC.

In reality, despite the entertainment value, I just can't imagine trying to boot them regardless of how dominant they may or may not be in athletics, and especially not with a fig leaf over the real complaint by throwing in a "changing mission and values" argument.

The IIAC kind of did this in the opposite direction in the late 90's.  The conference told Dubuque, Upper Iowa, and William Penn they needed to get more competitive athletically or get out.  Upper Iowa went D2, William Penn went NAIA, and Dubuque got their house in order and stayed in the IIAC. 

This MIAC deal sounds like the bottom feeders are twisting the arms of the other schools in noting the MIAC would lose auto bid status if they all left (probably to the MWC).  Sounds like the majority of the schools want UST to stay but might have to go along with voting UST out to maintain the auto bid status. 

[sfury]

Great insight as always, ESQ. But it still seems difficult to separate the football dominance from it. It's impossible to know if this would still be happening if St. Thomas had remained mired in mediocrity in football since 2008, but it just seems unlikely. With respect to the harriers, thinclads, volleyball players, baseball players and cagers, I don't think the Tommies' dominance in other sports leads to lots of consternation. (on the other hand, maybe it was impossible for them to remain mediocre given the institutional focus you pointed out and that's the problem).

[miac952]

Carleton, MAC, and St Olaf as the Washington Generals are laughable. Their endowments in order are 1,2,3 in the MIAC. Carleton and Mac have more than double in their coffers than UST, and more than 10 times that of Bethel and Augsburg. Less than a decade ago the indoor fieldhouses and training centers Carleton and St Olaf put up were the envy of the MIAC. The Ole student center was another development everyone chased in the MIAC, even if it was built with laundered mob money. 😀 St Olaf hired a D1 hockey coach (Wisconsin)and D1 track coach (Gophers). The Oles just built an $10 million hockey palace. UST rents out space from a High School.

Let's not make St Olaf out to be destitute here. They have committed as many resources as anyone at D3 athletics. What their President really needs to say is they haven't been very successful when it comes to competition.

Each MIAC school is different. Is Augsburg like Carleton? Is Concordia like Mac? St John's like St Mary's? No, no, no. There is massive differentiation and mission amongst the members.

[jknezek]

I want to chime in on this!

First off, Reusse is a phenomenal troll.  He is one of the few people that can make the folks on Summit & Cretin a sympathetic bunch.

In so doing, he is shifting what is the argument is really all about:  institutional mission and philosophy. Up until the 1990s, the MIAC consisted of small liberal arts college whose missions in undergraduate educations largely mirrored one another.  The schools were differentiated only by their locations and setting and their religious affiliations. 

....

But athletics is a pretty good indication of the flaunting.  Since 2000, only three schools have won the All-Sports Trophy:  UST, SJU, and Gustavus; and the last time UST didn't win it for men or women was in 2006-2007, when SJU and GAC shared the titles.  None of this is to blame UST for its success or its institutional decisions, but for a majority of a conference who offers sports as a mere opportunity for their student body to participate, UST is playing a whole different game.

It isn't about football.  It's truly about institutional focus.  A SJU classmate and I had been chatting that this was on the horizon for a while.  With the MWC now having an opening, this is a very real threat; if the St. Olafs and Carletons and Macalesters are not heeded to put some caps on how MIAC schools see their sports, they could leave; then do you think Bethel, Hamline and Augsburg want to be left alone in a conference with SJU and UST?  They wouldn't be able to compete in such an arms race.  Make no mistake, SJU should be on notice, too-- but it isn't about beating someone 90-0; it's entirely about how you do it, and the schools on the bottom end are tired of being the Washington Generals.

So is it about athletics or is it about Mission and Values? Because there are mixed mission and values conferences in DIII. JHU in the Centennial is the obvious example. I'd say CMU in the PAC. Chicago in the MWC. Tufts in the NESCAC. Conversely, there are tons of conferences where one team dominates athletically. In the ODAC, W&L has won the all-sports trophy 22 out of the 24 times it has been awarded as an example. UMHB, UMU, there are more.

It's hard to get around the fact that STU is a founding member of the MIAC. Kicking them out because they got too big or win too much, which seems to be the dual arguments regardless of which is primary and which is secondary, is something that many other conferences seem to deal with. The MIAC schools pushing this seem to not want to deal with something that is pretty routine across DIII. That's... unique.