FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

I had an interesting chat over dinner with an attorney friend who's also from MN. He asked whether this whole thing sets a precedent for other DIII conferences that might want to boot members for parity issues. He was talking about a legal precedent, but it's got me thinking about how precedent is viewed more generally in DIII athletics. Could other conferences use the MIAC example to support ousting teams? If so, can you see it happening elsewhere? If it starts happening elsewhere, how do you think the NCAA would respond (we know how the public has responded)?

I don't think it happens very often. I guess the PAC booted TMC, but that was quite a bit different. In areas where D3 schools are denser, the threat of getting your way or dissolving the conference has less weight. In the NE we've seen weaker teams just break off and form a new conference.  So the conferences where this kind of maneuvering is effective are somewhat limited. And I don't think the NCAA cares very much.

[Mr.MIAC]

I had an interesting chat over dinner with an attorney friend who's also from MN. He asked whether this whole thing sets a precedent for other DIII conferences that might want to boot members for parity issues. He was talking about a legal precedent, but it's got me thinking about how precedent is viewed more generally in DIII athletics. Could other conferences use the MIAC example to support ousting teams? If so, can you see it happening elsewhere? If it starts happening elsewhere, how do you think the NCAA would respond (we know how the public has responded)?

I don't think it happens very often. I guess the PAC booted TMC, but that was quite a bit different. In areas where D3 schools are denser, the threat of getting your way or dissolving the conference has less weight. In the NE we've seen weaker teams just break off and form a new conference.  So the conferences where this kind of maneuvering is effective are somewhat limited. And I don't think the NCAA cares very much.

Can you think of an example in any division where a school with the following attributes has been booted from its conference?

1) In good standing (no rule-breaking)
2) Optimal location (no travel issues)
3) Competitive but not wholly dominant athletics (lots of others winning championships)
4) Competitive academics (scores well above the conference median)

[faunch]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

[Mr.MIAC]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

WTF.

[Gregory Sager]

I had an interesting chat over dinner with an attorney friend who's also from MN. He asked whether this whole thing sets a precedent for other DIII conferences that might want to boot members for parity issues. He was talking about a legal precedent, but it's got me thinking about how precedent is viewed more generally in DIII athletics. Could other conferences use the MIAC example to support ousting teams? If so, can you see it happening elsewhere? If it starts happening elsewhere, how do you think the NCAA would respond (we know how the public has responded)?

I don't think it happens very often. I guess the PAC booted TMC, but that was quite a bit different. In areas where D3 schools are denser, the threat of getting your way or dissolving the conference has less weight. In the NE we've seen weaker teams just break off and form a new conference.  So the conferences where this kind of maneuvering is effective are somewhat limited. And I don't think the NCAA cares very much.

Can you think of an example in any division where a school with the following attributes has been booted from its conference?

1) In good standing (no rule-breaking)
2) Optimal location (no travel issues)
3) Competitive but not wholly dominant athletics (lots of others winning championships)

There are several boards across d3boards.com on which the issue has come up of how St. Thomas's domination of the MIAC compares to other dominant schools in other leagues, so I've done some investigating. (It was a pain in the neck, too, as most D3 conferences don't make convenient all-sports championships lists.) As it turns out, there's a few leagues in which a single school has dominated the all-sports trophy (whether real or imagined) in terms of overall, men's, and/or women's phases for roughly the same timespan as UST's current run in the MIAC:

* Johns Hopkins in the Centennial
* MIT in the NEWMAC
* Wartburg in the ARC
* Washington & Lee in the ODAC

... but, within that timespan of 10-15 years' worth of all-sports dominance, none of those other four examples comes close to matching UST's dominance within the MIAC in terms of the percentage of championships won. As the league's website puts it:

The University of St. Thomas won 47% (155) of all MIAC Championships (both team and individual sports) awarded from 2003-2018. Over the last five years (2013-18), UST won 62 MIAC Championships (56%).

... so it could be argued that the degree of dominance, plus the geographic factor that jknezek mentioned, makes St. Thomas sui generis among D3 schools that dominate their respective leagues. Not that I'm saying that that makes the MIAC's case for Tomtoss, mind you. It's just that the four attributes that you've listed are relative.

4) Competitive academics (scores well above the conference median)

Pat's already publicly mentioned in the d3sports.com presser the only analogous situation I can recall, and it long predates D3:

The most recent analogous case would in 1959-60, prior to the advent of Division III, when Wheaton (Ill.) left the College Conference of Illinois, now the CCIW. That followed a run of four consecutive unbeaten seasons for the school in the conference in men's basketball. The school rejoined the conference less than a decade later.

He didn't mention that Wheaton also completely dominated football as well; the Crusaders (Wheaton's nickname at the time) had won seven straight CCI titles, losing only two conference games during that span. Given that in that era football and basketball were really the only sports to which anyone paid attention on the college level, that total dominance in those two sports was deemed sufficient by the other seven schools to spur them into tossing the Wheaties out of the league.

At any rate, Pat's point -- that it has been multiple generations since anything like Tomtoss has occurred within the ranks of what is now D3 -- is worth noting.

[Mr.MIAC]

I had an interesting chat over dinner with an attorney friend who's also from MN. He asked whether this whole thing sets a precedent for other DIII conferences that might want to boot members for parity issues. He was talking about a legal precedent, but it's got me thinking about how precedent is viewed more generally in DIII athletics. Could other conferences use the MIAC example to support ousting teams? If so, can you see it happening elsewhere? If it starts happening elsewhere, how do you think the NCAA would respond (we know how the public has responded)?

I don't think it happens very often. I guess the PAC booted TMC, but that was quite a bit different. In areas where D3 schools are denser, the threat of getting your way or dissolving the conference has less weight. In the NE we've seen weaker teams just break off and form a new conference.  So the conferences where this kind of maneuvering is effective are somewhat limited. And I don't think the NCAA cares very much.

Can you think of an example in any division where a school with the following attributes has been booted from its conference?

1) In good standing (no rule-breaking)
2) Optimal location (no travel issues)
3) Competitive but not wholly dominant athletics (lots of others winning championships)

There are several boards across d3boards.com on which the issue has come up of how St. Thomas's domination of the MIAC compares to other dominant schools in other leagues, so I've done some investigating. (It was a pain in the neck, too, as most D3 conferences don't make convenient all-sports championships lists.) As it turns out, there's a few leagues in which a single school has dominated the all-sports trophy (whether real or imagined) in terms of overall, men's, and/or women's phases for roughly the same timespan as UST's current run in the MIAC:

* Johns Hopkins in the Centennial
* MIT in the NEWMAC
* Wartburg in the ARC
* Washington & Lee in the ODAC

... but, within that timespan of 10-15 years' worth of all-sports dominance, none of those other four examples comes close to matching UST's dominance within the MIAC in terms of the percentage of championships won. As the league's website puts it:

The University of St. Thomas won 47% (155) of all MIAC Championships (both team and individual sports) awarded from 2003-2018. Over the last five years (2013-18), UST won 62 MIAC Championships (56%).

... so it could be argued that the degree of dominance, plus the geographic factor that jknezek mentioned, makes St. Thomas sui generis among D3 schools that dominate their respective leagues. Not that I'm saying that that makes the MIAC's case for Tomtoss, mind you. It's just that the four attributes that you've listed are relative.

4) Competitive academics (scores well above the conference median)

Pat's already publicly mentioned in the d3sports.com presser the only analogous situation I can recall, and it long predates D3:

The most recent analogous case would in 1959-60, prior to the advent of Division III, when Wheaton (Ill.) left the College Conference of Illinois, now the CCIW. That followed a run of four consecutive unbeaten seasons for the school in the conference in men's basketball. The school rejoined the conference less than a decade later.

He didn't mention that Wheaton also completely dominated football as well; the Crusaders (Wheaton's nickname at the time) had won seven straight CCI titles, losing only two conference games during that span. Given that in that era football and basketball were really the only sports to which anyone paid attention on the college level, that total dominance in those two sports was deemed sufficient by the other seven schools to spur them into tossing the Wheaties out of the league.

At any rate, Pat's point -- that it has been multiple generations since anything like Tomtoss has occurred within the ranks of what is now D3 -- is worth noting.

Thanks for the solid research. +K.

[Ralph Turner]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

WTF.

Travel partners...
It makes sense to me.

[sjusection105]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

WTF.

The bylaw change would read something like this. An all male school is not inclusive. You're out.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

WTF.

The bylaw change would read something like this. An all male school is not inclusive. You're out.

wouldn't that change also expel Ben's & Kate's? Granted Ben's/John's can be looked at as practically 1 school. Of course, with UST gone, Katie IS the largest enrollment

[Mr.MIAC]

MIAC sources familiar with the Presidents' Council discussions indicate the following institutions planned to leave the conference if UST remained: Augsburg University, Carleton College, Hamline University, Macalester College, St. Catherine University, St. Mary's University, and St. Olaf College. Aside from St. Catherine University, each of these institutions competes against SJ2 and would therefore have an interest in the size of its athletic programs. 

The relevant institutions are led by the following individuals. I've included their terminal degrees, which are mostly in the Humanities. None appear to have been student athletes; little indicates they've ever prioritized developing leaders through athletics. Does this information tell us anything about the value they might place on competitive athletics?

Augsburg University: Paul C. Pribbenow, PhD in Social Ethics (Chicago)
Carleton College: Steven G. Poskanzer, JD (Harvard)
Hamline University: Fayneese Miller, PhD in Psychology (Texas Christian)
Macalester College: Brian C. Rosenberg, PhD in English (Columbia)
St. Mary's University: Rev. James P. Burns, PhD in Psychology (Northeastern)
St. Olaf College: David R. Anderson, PhD in English (Boston College)

[Texas Ole]

MIAC sources familiar with the Presidents' Council discussions indicate the following institutions planned to leave the conference if UST remained: Augsburg University, Carleton College, Hamline University, Macalester College, St. Catherine University, St. Mary's University, and St. Olaf College. Aside from St. Catherine University, each of these institutions competes against SJ2 and would therefore have an interest in the size of its athletic programs. 

The relevant institutions are led by the following individuals. I've included their terminal degrees, which are mostly in the Humanities. None appear to have been student athletes; little indicates they've ever prioritized developing leaders through athletics. Does this information tell us anything about the value they might place on competitive athletics?

Augsburg University: Paul C. Pribbenow, PhD in Social Ethics (Chicago)
Carleton College: Steven G. Poskanzer, JD (Harvard)
Hamline University: Fayneese Miller, PhD in Psychology (Texas Christian)
Macalester College: Brian C. Rosenberg, PhD in English (Columbia)
St. Mary's University: Rev. James P. Burns, PhD in Psychology (Northeastern)
St. Olaf College: David R. Anderson, PhD in English (Boston College)

Fayneese Miller got her PhD from a school of not much bigger than UST with as many Rose Bowl wins as the University of Minnesota.

[OldAuggie]

MIAC sources familiar with the Presidents' Council discussions indicate the following institutions planned to leave the conference if UST remained: Augsburg University, Carleton College, Hamline University, Macalester College, St. Catherine University, St. Mary's University, and St. Olaf College. Aside from St. Catherine University, each of these institutions competes against SJ2 and would therefore have an interest in the size of its athletic programs. 

The relevant institutions are led by the following individuals. I've included their terminal degrees, which are mostly in the Humanities. None appear to have been student athletes; little indicates they've ever prioritized developing leaders through athletics. Does this information tell us anything about the value they might place on competitive athletics?

Augsburg University: Paul C. Pribbenow, PhD in Social Ethics (Chicago)
Carleton College: Steven G. Poskanzer, JD (Harvard)
Hamline University: Fayneese Miller, PhD in Psychology (Texas Christian)
Macalester College: Brian C. Rosenberg, PhD in English (Columbia)
St. Mary's University: Rev. James P. Burns, PhD in Psychology (Northeastern)
St. Olaf College: David R. Anderson, PhD in English (Boston College)

Paul Pribbenow got his PhD from a school (Chicago) with more National Championships than the Univerisity of Wisconsin but not as many as the University of Minnesota.

[sfury]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

Jeez, surprise, surprise.

We've had a lot of great discussions here but really this post by Redtooth at the very start of it was pretty much all we needed to know about the St. Thomas situation, and, if the MIAC presidents really show their muscle, the future SJU situation.

April 07, 2019, 02:12:59 pm »
There are so many places to start when discussing the current state of affairs in the MIAC....I know way too much information on this situation....Let me start off by stating the origin of this matter was UST Football's dominance and a real demonization of Glenn Caruso as HC....The fact is, he has developed a nationally relevant, incredibly successful football program.  That coupled with Steve Fritz' wonderful vision as AD to excel as a total program....they invested and committed to building a Winning Department.  The bottom half of this league in the meantime has acted as though we are still in the 1970s, and then wondered why student athletes don't go to their schools.  Schools with billion dollar endowments that don't invest in athletics and then bitch when a competitor makes a different investment and commitment decision is the absolute definition of hypocrisy.

What the Presidents are now engaged in doing with the bylaws (modifying to create an Enrollment cap that would only impact one school) has been done under the cover of darkness amongst the like-minded schools....If successful, they will utilize the same strategy to eliminate any school that deviates from the clustering of mediocrity they so desire...SJU will be a next target, guaranteed!

Only good thing is most of what is being proposed is likely not supported legally and could be tied up in the courts.. Removing UST would not make the league stronger or better.

[faunch]

From Charley Walters Sunday Pioneer Press column...apparently the MIACowards are already making their case to boot SJU!

https://www.twincities.com/2019/05/25/charley-walters-twins-owner-jim-pohlad-excited-with-a-grain-of-salt/

WTF.

I now believe more than ever that booting U$t was also about breaking up the
Johnnie/ Tommie rivalry #bro-mance

envy and jealousy is what this was all about!!!

[Texas Ole]

MIAC sources familiar with the Presidents' Council discussions indicate the following institutions planned to leave the conference if UST remained: Augsburg University, Carleton College, Hamline University, Macalester College, St. Catherine University, St. Mary's University, and St. Olaf College. Aside from St. Catherine University, each of these institutions competes against SJ2 and would therefore have an interest in the size of its athletic programs. 

The relevant institutions are led by the following individuals. I've included their terminal degrees, which are mostly in the Humanities. None appear to have been student athletes; little indicates they've ever prioritized developing leaders through athletics. Does this information tell us anything about the value they might place on competitive athletics?

Augsburg University: Paul C. Pribbenow, PhD in Social Ethics (Chicago)
Carleton College: Steven G. Poskanzer, JD (Harvard)
Hamline University: Fayneese Miller, PhD in Psychology (Texas Christian)
Macalester College: Brian C. Rosenberg, PhD in English (Columbia)
St. Mary's University: Rev. James P. Burns, PhD in Psychology (Northeastern)
St. Olaf College: David R. Anderson, PhD in English (Boston College)

Fayneese Miller got her PhD from a school of not much bigger than UST with as many Rose Bowl wins as the University of Minnesota.

Notice my karma took a hit with this post.  Must be some pain from the 2011 Rose Bowl loss by Wisconsin to little TCU.  Go Frogs!