FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[AO]

Here's the raw data. I might be missing something because these tables show the same # for Revenue and Expense:

Revenue in these reports is anything they use to pay the bills with.  Tickets, tuition or NCAA distributions for playoff expenses.  I don't think the Target Field game has much to do with the expenses here.  That was a Twins production that paid St. Thomas a flat fee of $200k. 

[bluestreak66]

Breaking news from NYC--- the Twins have been "involuntarily removed" from the American League!

That's what happens every time they make the playoffs-they get involuntarily removed! 

P.S.: Go White Sox!

[TheChucker]

Some interesting tidbits in Shooter's sunday column: https://www.twincities.com/2019/06/01/charley-walters-twins-in-market-for-dallas-keuchel-craig-kimbrel/?utm_content=tw-PioneerPress&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

That $20M figure for D2 is beyond ridiculous. Shooter must have pulled that from....well, you know where.

MSUM, UMD and SCS with D1 hockey spend $10-$11M while BSU spends $7M and that includes scholarships. The remaining non hockey schools average $6M including scholarships. UST already spends $5M not including any financial aid to athletes.

Might be a little high, but UST also sponsors more sports.  It might also include added facility costs and those associated to a private school that are not present at those schools.  It would be interesting to know the difference in cost between D1 and D2.  I have sympathy for the UST athletes that have no clue where they will play in the future.  If UST moves up there are likely a few athletes that could lose playing time and maybe a roster spot to a new athlete.  I thought I read where UST is committed to not dropping sports, but I think that has to be a concern.  I feel for the UST athletes and their general student body that will be effected by this decision.

Just as a reference, Augustana (private) spends $9.5M without hockey. UST would need to spend about $3M more for hockey to be on par with the other D1 schools.

Per a query of the Equity in Athletics data, the median athletic budget for a private D1 FCS school (I excluded the Ivies) is about $20M. It's interesting that the average FCS school spends more on basketball than football.

What do these expense figures actually account for? If it's just operating expenses, it doesn't take into account the additional athletic scholarships, which even at partial scholarships are going to add up quickly.

The D2 and FCS expenses above include athletic scholarships (not just operating expenses). For UST, fully funding current sports at D2 would be 201 scholarships (including D1 hockey) by my rough count, and 265 for FCS. Multiply that by the average net price to attend UST for student athletes somewhere in the $20K-$30K range (?) for a rough total scholarship cost estimate.

[jknezek]

The D2 and FCS expenses above include athletic scholarships (not just operating expenses). For UST, fully funding current sports at D2 would be 201 scholarships (including D1 hockey) by my rough count, and 265 for FCS. Multiply that by the average net price to attend UST for student athletes somewhere in the $20K-$30K range (?) for a rough total scholarship cost estimate.

Yes. But here is where it starts getting sticky. Because you can then look at all your current athletes that are getting need based, leadership, academic, or other scholarships and make adjustments for it. Yes, the real cost accounts for some of that, but not all of it. You have to get really into the weeds to figure out how much it would cost. Would it cost more? Absolutely. It's one of the problems I have with DII. The costs go up and the revenues and exposure aren't real helpful. If you need to be DII as a differentiating point from other schools around you, that is one thing. But whenever I look at DII I always think of the saying that "half measures are worse than no measures."

That being said, in this case, I still think DII makes more sense than being a DIII independent. It makes more sense than going NAIA for a school that has any kind of academic aspirations. It makes more sense if you are trying to climb the DI ladder. Does it make more sense than being in the WIAC or ARC if possible? That I don't know.

[TheChucker]

The D2 and FCS expenses above include athletic scholarships (not just operating expenses). For UST, fully funding current sports at D2 would be 201 scholarships (including D1 hockey) by my rough count, and 265 for FCS. Multiply that by the average net price to attend UST for student athletes somewhere in the $20K-$30K range (?) for a rough total scholarship cost estimate.

Yes. But here is where it starts getting sticky. Because you can then look at all your current athletes that are getting need based, leadership, academic, or other scholarships and make adjustments for it. Yes, the real cost accounts for some of that, but not all of it. You have to get really into the weeds to figure out how much it would cost. Would it cost more? Absolutely. It's one of the problems I have with DII. The costs go up and the revenues and exposure aren't real helpful. If you need to be DII as a differentiating point from other schools around you, that is one thing. But whenever I look at DII I always think of the saying that "half measures are worse than no measures."

That being said, in this case, I still think DII makes more sense than being a DIII independent. It makes more sense than going NAIA for a school that has any kind of academic aspirations. It makes more sense if you are trying to climb the DI ladder. Does it make more sense than being in the WIAC or ARC if possible? That I don't know.

Good take on the D2 "half measures" quip! In the end, UST needs to figure out the long term vision and communicate it. The school has been on an upward trajectory academically, but what's next including athletics? Do they want to be the next Duquesne or San Diego in D1? Or do they have a longer term vision of being the next Upper Midwest academic national university powerhouse like Emory or Washington in their regions while staying D3 (there are probably better more realistic examples)?

[hazzben]

Again, UST(d) has been looking for years to move up, by playing their cards the way they did they won a publicity coup beyond imagination...

The MIAC acted shamefully. But they absolutely did UST a solid in terms of PR. Even just internally. There's not going to be any questioning from alumni who wanted to stay D3. The UST admin can just point to the MIAC and say they didn't have a choice.

It's also a fundraising coup. Plenty of pissed donors will open up the pocket books.

[jknezek]

Again, UST(d) has been looking for years to move up, by playing their cards the way they did they won a publicity coup beyond imagination...

The MIAC acted shamefully. But they absolutely did UST a solid in terms of PR. Even just internally. There's not going to be any questioning from alumni who wanted to stay D3. The UST admin can just point to the MIAC and say they didn't have a choice.

It's also a fundraising coup. Plenty of pissed donors will open up the pocket books.

I agree. And I think this was absolutely part of the price of UST leaving. Both sides got some of what they wanted but paid a price for it. For UST, they have some great PR and a chip going forward for the long term plans, but in the short term (yes, I consider 2 years of scrambling to be the short term) they lose their comfy athletic home. For the MIAC, UST is gone long term which is what they wanted, but they got hosed by PR in the short term. It was something of an equitable solution, or at least there are components of a compromise. It's how things should work between contentious parties.

[formerd3db]

Thank you to those of you here who very kindly responded to me via PM regarding my inquiry about Johnnie Red.  To those who did, please check your PMs as I have also sent a reply back to you.  Thanks again.  The DIII family on these boards is "what it is all about" and thanks to Pat for having made this possible. 

formerd3db

[PurpleTide]

I believe the following is the first communication about TommieToss from an MIAC President, other than UST's Julie Sullivan. It is a letter written by William Craft, President of Concordia College, to the Forum Newspaper of Fargo-Moorhead.

President Craft opens his letter by recognizing that "there has been indignation that St. Thomas would be led to leave for "winning too much," and indignation that the MIAC presidents haven't been willing to say more than what appeared in the press release and on the MIAC website." The remainder of his letter is an attempt to explain and justify the actions of the MIAC Presidents.

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/letters/1355558-Letter-Preservation-of-the-MIACs-future

[sjusection105]

Perhaps AO could put together a line as to when the next "involuntary departure from the MIAC" will take place. I'm thinking somewhere in the 5-10 year range. 

[sfury]

*Inhales a joint, contemplates life's deepest mysteries*

Isn't there something bizarre/incompatible when those who support the Tommies ouster bleat on about how many titles they won, and yet also go out of their way to say how the greatness of D3 sports is about everything BUT the winning? It's about education and the experience and the competition and the joy of athletics. Not winning, they'll say. And yet when a team wins too much...out they go? But I thought that doesn't matter?

In the Cobbers' prez's column:

We value the opportunity for our students to play sports for the love of it, seeking competition among peers who will test them and build their skills, as they develop the team identity and pride that is one of the greatest joys of Division III athletics. Athletics in the MIAC are a wonderful source of school spirit for fans and families, yet they exist, first and last, for the students who play.

Uh, they still get all of that even if St. Thomas wins the conference football and basketball titles every single season!

Winning isn't the only thing at the D3 level, and I think that's a point those of us against this whole thing believe much more than those who want them gone. Winning DOES matter at this level, otherwise why would we really even care? But the beauty of D3 and why we really love it is because there is so much more to it: You do know the students are going to school, if you care about that thing. They aren't getting scholarships so you absolutely know they're doing it for the love of the game. They're representing their communities and their fellow students. They're building bonds that will last a lifetime. Kids who played four years of football at St. Olaf have memories that are just as special as those who played four years at St. John's, regardless of whether or not one group got to play in the playoffs and one didn't. The journey is the story, not just who gets to win the Durenberger. It's that whole package -- the competitive nature and all the intangibles that make D3 great -- that made the MIAC so special. You knew the students were playing for the right reasons -- yes, even the Tommies, no matter how much some try to portray them as being like some Division I Alabama-football-like factory. Yet you also knew the teams were among the best in the nation and that they proved that every year on the fields and courts.

That's gone. It's now a conference that in theory cares about all the intangibles and, honestly, in a perverse way, cares too much about who wins. We need THESE teams to win THIS many titles and we need THAT team to not win so often or else we blow the whole thing up. (Seriously, can the presidents or supporters of #Tomtoss tell us exactly who should win the football title each year and who should win basketball and who should win track and who should win hockey? Just tell us and we can get Vince Russo in here to write the storylines and give us what we want. )

Also, I could give a flip about the fact the Tommies were maybe (or even for sure!) going to move up or outward on their own anyway. Well, they hadn't actually done that, or made anything like that official. It's like if the ACC banned Zion in November because it was likely he was going to turn pro in April. If they'd actually made a move to leave, then yeah the situation changes. We would be ripping on them! Or weighing the pros and cons. But that's not actually what happened, not at all. Yes, it's been a coup for Tommie PR with the way it was handled. But why was that? Because it was handled awfully and was a ridiculous decision and when you get down to it, unfair. So, yes, the school on the receiving end of that is probably going to get better PR than those who led the ouster. Doesn't mean there's a grand conspiracy afoot or that they have masterful PR folks pulling the strings or that it's further proof they deserved to be tossed.

*puts down the joint*

[DuffMan]

*applause*  Well said, sfury! *applause*

[57Johnnie]

+k sfury
I don't read posts over 5 lines but when Duff praised it, I had to read it. Amen.
When achievement is penalized we are on a slippery slope to mediocrity. ....... or worse!

[art76]

Jumping on the band wagon sfury - +K indeed!

[TheChucker]

"If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room."

― Confucius