FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[art76]

Observations about the four remaining teams:

UW Whitewater versus St. John's - Pound the ground and control the clock with your offense vs. the long baller

Muhlenberg verses North Central - Squashing defense vs. the shifty gun slinger

If the Warhawks and Mules prevail in the semis, the Stagg is going to be a rugby scrum.

If the Johnnies and the Cardinals move on, then we have a "who can run up the score fastest" contest.

It's just so intriguing to see how the four teams all have different make-ups, strengths and weaknesses - it's just going to be a hoot for us D3 fans!

Go Johnnies!

My favorite part: All the top seeds have been eliminated before the semi's.

Fun times....except if ur a fan of one of those top-seeded teams

We have had a long period, 10 or 12 years, where there where no more than three real contenders in any one year, often only two or even one contender. And the gap between the contenders and the rest of the field was huge and obvious. This year we'll finish with maybe seven teams who had a legit shot and were only a couple plays away from the whole shebang.

Could this be the beginning of a DIII renaissance or do you think this year will prove to be an anomaly?

Pat and Keith talked about the rest of D3 "catching up" with the Purple Powers in a recent Podcast - and I think the other teams have stepped up their games accordingly. I hope it continues. Time will tell if it is an anomaly or not.

[TheChucker]

Observations about the four remaining teams:

UW Whitewater versus St. John's - Pound the ground and control the clock with your offense vs. the long baller

Muhlenberg verses North Central - Squashing defense vs. the shifty gun slinger

If the Warhawks and Mules prevail in the semis, the Stagg is going to be a rugby scrum.

If the Johnnies and the Cardinals move on, then we have a "who can run up the score fastest" contest.

It's just so intriguing to see how the four teams all have different make-ups, strengths and weaknesses - it's just going to be a hoot for us D3 fans!

Go Johnnies!

My favorite part: All the top seeds have been eliminated before the semi's.

Fun times....except if ur a fan of one of those top-seeded teams

We have had a long period, 10 or 12 years, where there where no more than three real contenders in any one year, often only two or even one contender. And the gap between the contenders and the rest of the field was huge and obvious. This year we'll finish with maybe seven teams who had a legit shot and were only a couple plays away from the whole shebang.

Could this be the beginning of a DIII renaissance or do you think this year will prove to be an anomaly?

I'll play. I think it's more a slight changing of the guard at the top than a renaissance in D3. The gap between the top teams and the playoff pretenders contenders is noticeable, then the gap to everyone else is massive and growing. Last year, there were only 4 teams that had a realistic chance with 2 of them facing off in the quarterfinals. This year, there are 6 real contenders (I should probably say 5 cuz did anyone really think N Central would beat MU?) with 4 of those teams facing off in the quarterfinals and UMHB coming back to the pack. Maybe the CCIW top teams come back into play as national competitors as Augustana did a long time ago.   

[MiacMan]

If they have anybody worth offering, it sounds like an area UST/Caruso could pounce on?

I'm honestly wondering how their recruiting is going now with the uncertainty of the program.  D3?  D2?  D1 non-scholarship?  D1 scholarship?  That has to make it a tough sell, I would think.

Interesting, I was thinking the opposite. They have D1 to hang in front of a prospect's face. Obviously, UST won't be able to compete with the true scholarship programs until things are finalized, but they will be able to talk to the borderline kid (D1/D2) and assure the kid they will be playing D1 at some level. They may even be able to talk scholarship after 1 year or 2 in the program? I would think this would make it a nightmare for the programs in D3 recruiting the same difference maker type athlete (ie. Jackson Erdmanns of the world) I would think UST would have a huge advantage landing those kids right now. Assuming the kid still wants to compete at the highest level of their ability?

[OzJohnnie]

I'm going with renaissance.  I say this because not only the larger number of teams, but the style of play.  We've been dominated for quite a while by the LL's TOP analysis. Run heavy, grind out the ball. This year has delivered a huge variety of successful styles which have delivered not only excitement but some genuinely good games based on good teams adjusting to the unfamiliar from another good team.

I'm calling it now: last weekend's clash between UWW and UHMB was the final few pages on that chapter of football style in DIII. We're entering a new high flying, high variety phase of the game where teams tackle more complex schemes and really increase the complexity on offer.

[jamtod]

Observations about the four remaining teams:

UW Whitewater versus St. John's - Pound the ground and control the clock with your offense vs. the long baller

Muhlenberg verses North Central - Squashing defense vs. the shifty gun slinger

If the Warhawks and Mules prevail in the semis, the Stagg is going to be a rugby scrum.

If the Johnnies and the Cardinals move on, then we have a "who can run up the score fastest" contest.

It's just so intriguing to see how the four teams all have different make-ups, strengths and weaknesses - it's just going to be a hoot for us D3 fans!

Go Johnnies!

My favorite part: All the top seeds have been eliminated before the semi's.

Fun times....except if ur a fan of one of those top-seeded teams

We have had a long period, 10 or 12 years, where there where no more than three real contenders in any one year, often only two or even one contender. And the gap between the contenders and the rest of the field was huge and obvious. This year we'll finish with maybe seven teams who had a legit shot and were only a couple plays away from the whole shebang.

Could this be the beginning of a DIII renaissance or do you think this year will prove to be an anomaly?

Anomaly.
Every few years the top tier bluebloods with an actual shot at the title shuffles a bit.

We'll be down to 2 and then 1 team soon in the next few weeks, and somebody will get blown out this week or next to separate the haves and have nots so we'll be able to recalibrate for next year.

[sjujohnnie]

https://gojohnnies.com/news/2019/11/26/the-gagliardi-trophy-twelve-semifinalists-for-2019-gagliardi-trophy-announced.aspx

According to this article, "Four Gagliardi Trophy finalists will be released by D3football.com on Tuesday, Dec. 10. On Thursday, Dec. 12, D3football.com will broadcast a 20-minute show with highlights of the finalists and the winner being revealed at that time."

Since December 10th, was inaccurate, is December 12th as well?

[jamtod]

https://gojohnnies.com/news/2019/11/26/the-gagliardi-trophy-twelve-semifinalists-for-2019-gagliardi-trophy-announced.aspx

According to this article, "Four Gagliardi Trophy finalists will be released by D3football.com on Tuesday, Dec. 10. On Thursday, Dec. 12, D3football.com will broadcast a 20-minute show with highlights of the finalists and the winner being revealed at that time."

Since December 10th, was inaccurate, is December 12th as well?

Further evidence that Johnnies aren't to be trusted, especially with the Gagliardi trophy.

[johnnie_esq]

If they have anybody worth offering, it sounds like an area UST/Caruso could pounce on?

I'm honestly wondering how their recruiting is going now with the uncertainty of the program.  D3?  D2?  D1 non-scholarship?  D1 scholarship?  That has to make it a tough sell, I would think.

Interesting, I was thinking the opposite. They have D1 to hang in front of a prospect's face. Obviously, UST won't be able to compete with the true scholarship programs until things are finalized, but they will be able to talk to the borderline kid (D1/D2) and assure the kid they will be playing D1 at some level. They may even be able to talk scholarship after 1 year or 2 in the program? I would think this would make it a nightmare for the programs in D3 recruiting the same difference maker type athlete (ie. Jackson Erdmanns of the world) I would think UST would have a huge advantage landing those kids right now. Assuming the kid still wants to compete at the highest level of their ability?

I totally agree with you as well, but the SCSU and UMC news will allow competitors for recruits to ask whether UST will even keep a football team after the move.  I can tell you that NDSU was hot to trot all over some of the SCSU players immediately once the news was announced yesterday.

Sure it is hogwash, but welcome to recruiting in college athletics.

[MUC57]

OzJohnnie

When I lived in California, Bay Area and 1 hour from the Napa Valley, I was really into wines. Although I'm a wine snob, California wines almost exclusively, I tried wines from around the world. Chile had very good, very heavy reds. Germany has outstanding Rieslings. Hungary has some smooth wines.
Buy I had some  really excellent wines from Australia. I don't remember the name of the wines or the vintners. But good stuff. A Priest from Australia was visiting my parish priest. We had them to our house for dinner. I served an Aussie wine with dinner.  The visitor knew the wine and said it was excellent.
I took some wine classes in California. I have a better than average knowledge of wines and can pick out good ones. (I don't mean drinking Muscatel out of a paper bag while sitting on the curb). Your wines are out there. Maybe send your roo to the outback or wherever.
I was thinking you could put a note on your boomerang, asking for help. But that wouldn't work - it would just come back to you.
Bottom line. The wines are out there. Find 'em! 🇦🇺 🍷

[Pat Coleman]

https://gojohnnies.com/news/2019/11/26/the-gagliardi-trophy-twelve-semifinalists-for-2019-gagliardi-trophy-announced.aspx

According to this article, "Four Gagliardi Trophy finalists will be released by D3football.com on Tuesday, Dec. 10. On Thursday, Dec. 12, D3football.com will broadcast a 20-minute show with highlights of the finalists and the winner being revealed at that time."

Since December 10th, was inaccurate, is December 12th as well?

That isn't the copy we agreed to with the J-Club.

https://www.d3football.com/notables/2019/11/gagliardi-semifinalists-announced

"D3football.com will reveal the finalists on a live streaming broadcast on the afternoon of Thursday, Dec. 12."

[bennie]

Massey rates this game 28-24, UWW.  Hansen says 29.1-24.9, SJU.  If they are at least correct that the game will be that close then I'm almost certain to have a heart attack this weekend.  bennie already had me drinking before 7:30am last weekend.

I will have to start drinking Friday night!

[OzJohnnie]

I totally agree with you as well, but the SCSU and UMC news will allow competitors for recruits to ask whether UST will even keep a football team after the move.  I can tell you that NDSU was hot to trot all over some of the SCSU players immediately once the news was announced yesterday.

Sure it is hogwash, but welcome to recruiting in college athletics.

I'm thinking the Tommies will be fine with recruiting.  They'll have a season or two where some guys are uncertain but the Tommies will be very committed to sports.  I would suspect that they maintain a long term dream, maybe 25 years or even more, of achieving private FBS status in Minnesota.  Just a couple great big money bags and institutional focus is all it needs.  There are 130 FBS programs and only one of those is in Minny.  Room exists for another and UST stands out as peg to fill that empty hole.

Summit, Pioneer.  All stepping stones to an eventual home in an FBS conference is my guess.

[OzJohnnie]

The wines are out there. Find 'em! 🇦🇺 🍷

Well, if you insist then I'll just have to give it my best effort. 

It is quite tasty, wine.

[Boys of Fall]

Massey rates this game 28-24, UWW.  Hansen says 29.1-24.9, SJU.  If they are at least correct that the game will be that close then I'm almost certain to have a heart attack this weekend.  bennie already had me drinking before 7:30am last weekend.

I'm already coming out of my skin and it's only Wednesday...or Thursday for you!

#$@%!  Thursday?  I actually thought it was Wednesday.  I'm so far behind in my work this week.  Damn.

Oz, we're all pretty nervous about Saturday over here.  Since you're almost a day ahead down there can you let us know Saturday morning who wins so we can watch the game for enjoyment and not worry about who's going to win?

[formerd3db]

I can tell you that for a Title IX compliance check, each sport has an 11 page worksheet covering everything from facilities to resources to recruiting budgets to accommodations of athletes to access to trainers to how many administrative assistants are provided in the sport offices.  The Court does look at all of those.

SCSU had 19 sports at the time.  That is 200 pages minimum of the data being furnished.

Like I said, baseball and softball illustrate the difficult conundrum-- softball gets a dump for a home field they play on for maybe 4-5 games per year, but play 20-30 in the dome on the football field.  Baseball gets a gem of a field to play on for 7-10 games per year but otherwise plays on the road.  It is hard to compare whether or not athletes are given equitable opportunities accordingly.  If they built Husky Stadium right and demolished the football portion of Selke, why didn't they add a few hundred thousand more and do softball at Selke correct then?

Football's problem was revenue.  It is declining despite the administration investing in it-- building a new facility in 2004 and re instituting traditions around homecoming, investing in marketing efforts and asking the students to raise their fees just for football-- that is a lot of legislative and political neck being exposed in the name of trying to grow the revenue base.  And they were not unsuccessful over the past 10 years (unlike UM- Crookston, who has struggled seemingly forever).   All donors to athletic programs--- limited in the St. Cloud area--- were pushed instead toward D-1 hockey.  Yes, there are 97 roster spots, but it is the 20 scholarships, the cost of paying coaches, and the cost of team travel- even by bus-- that makes it so expensive.  As MIAC schools know, big rosters equals more enrollment. 

The broader problem is there is a shifting demographic and emphasis away from football nationwide.  College and pro attendance is down nationally, participation is down at high schools.  I view SCSU as a canary in the coal mine, per se-- a proud, moderately successful program which cannot continue the economics to make football sustainable in a modern athletics program.

I don't think declining participation in football has much to do with this situation.  St. Cloud State didn't have trouble filling out a roster, and their attendance wasn't far off of historical averages.  It's not like they were ever getting 10,000 fans per game.  They also are going to be missing the equivalent of 77 tuition paying students from the school now.  It's obviously easier financially in D3 as we know, but I don't think SCSU is the canary in the coal mine as their Title IX lawsuit loss makes their situation substantially different than most other schools. 

...Yes, there are 97 roster spots, but it is the 20 scholarships, the cost of paying coaches, and the cost of team travel- even by bus-- that makes it so expensive.  As MIAC schools know, big rosters equals more enrollment...

So in the end, SCSU risks giving up another 77 net students worth of revenue (97 minus 20 scholarships) of at least $1.16M (77 X $15K + any grant money from the Feds/State not paid by the student). It doesn't seem like such a great deal.

FWIW. My last post on this issue for all those craving D3 semifinals discussion.

Certainly, you guys know much more about the situation at SCSU than I do and I do not know of the particulars regarding the Title IX lawsuit you mention they lost. Yet, just a few general comments here, if I may.  First, I am always sad when a college or university decides to eliminate their football program, although I understand there are a variety of factors that always weigh into and end up determining that final decision. And if they were struggling with only offering a small number (20) of full scholarships to be split among the 97 players on the roster, certainly providing the NCAA Div II limit of 35 to be split was out of the question.  However, IMO, and what I've seen from situations similar to this in the past with state university DII schools here in Michigan i.e. Wayne State and Michigan Tech as well as a school like Davenport University, which just started their program, initially one year in NAIA and now DII in the GLAIC, there is always a way to make it work.  Even Ferris State, which has DI hockey and DII football as you know has been able to do it, and their attendance, as well as the others in that league for football is not more than the "historical average" as you have mentioned and is essentially in-line with what we are seeing for college football attendance in this age (a decline at all levels, even though some schools have some huge single game attendance for their big games of the season.

From what you have shared, it sounds to me like that SCSU simply decided that football was of non-essential importance to the university despite the usual "difficult decision" comments from the administration/athletic administration as are always stated in these situations and, as such, that they've decided to pin the name on the DI hockey program as well as even more support for the women's athletic programs there-11 women's to 7 for men including the new men's soccer program in place of football (of course, I realize there is much more that is factored into that with regard to the women's programs and what is required to meet that as you outlined.)   

But again, I still believe if they really wanted to, a solution could be worked out.  As you probably recall, this happened back in the early 2000s at Michigan Tech when the administration eliminated football.  A huge outcry and backlash occurred and within 3 months, alumni (football and otherwise) raised over 3 million dollars for football and it was reinstated.  Tech soon after won a part of the GLIAC title and even played in Michigan Stadium against Grand Valley in what remains as the highest attendance for an NCAA DII football game to date (some 51,000.)  Granted, Michigan Tech has not had much success in football on the field in recent years, however, the program has been and is sustainable and, to my knowledge, there is no indication that there is danger of it being discontinued.  Similarly, Wayne State was going to drop football way back in 1983, although that was obviously a different era, yet the circumstances similar-at that time, they only offered 7 full football scholarships. Yet their program is healthy at present, with good attendance (which is just as hard, if not harder than as SCSU to recruit to get players to stay in the Detroit area), they made it to the DII football National Championship game in 2012 and this year had an 8-3 record.  Also, there were nay-sayers about Davenport even starting a program let alone joining the GLIAC as they did (it is not a state university) and their program is stable (although they did not have a great record this year.) Ferris State, another example of being able to "do it all" in keeping with football, a DI hockey program and their women's sports and, similarly to SCSU, they have to complete with a huge number of DII football schools in the region (which has certainly had an effect on the DIII football programs in Michigan.) As to a DIII comparison, Adrian College was in danger financially as well as heavily declined enrollment back in the mid-2000s when they purposely added men's and women's ice hockey, men's and women's lacrosse, women's ice skating (they even have two club collegiate hockey programs) all of which increased enrollment, sustained the college and that even without athletic scholarships as we all, of course, know and they have not had to increase tuition/R&B to the levels that some of the other MIAA schools have had to do.  Perhaps, though, this DIII example cannot be compared to the DII situation at SCSU.

So overall, I believe that it can be done if it is really is wanted to be done (unless the school is in such dire financial danger, such as apparently DIII Beloit College is), although you mention that the donating factions in the immediate SCSU area were "maxed out", at least pointed toward/highly directed to the DI hockey program.  Nothing against the Title IX  situation as it has to be complied with and that is also only fair.  Yet, again, I just think the elimination of the football program is a sad and disappointing situation anytime, anywhere.  As to the Minnesota-Crookston situation, it appears that may have been a somewhat different (and/or worse) situation than at SCSU.  Anyway, too bad for the two schools, but that is the reality in today's world.  Thanks for allowing me to "rip off" a few overall general comments here, although as I said, I do not know the specifics, which would likely make some (or possibly all) of what I discussed mute in these two new particular situations.