FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[TC]

So TC, want to do the same calculation with all-state teams???

I would love to.  Where are the all-state rosters? 

Like you said, you run into a lot of the same issues whether you are looking at all-star games, all-state teams, stats, awards, whatever...  But if there are players that I am missing, I would guess they are distributed somewhat similarly to the players I'm catching.  Are you suggesting there is some sort of selection bias with using the All-Star Game rosters?  (One that I considered is transfers, where I think the Johnnies would make up some ground a few years after the fact.)

That's the problem with evaluating college recruiting, especially at smaller schools, especially in football:  most kids don't get more than 10 games a season, play on teams with widely disparate talent, play against teams with widely disparate talent, and with no way for any one person to see even a small percentage of the total play that takes place.

The motivation behind choosing the All-Star Game roster for this was simple convenience.  There's a website that has the rosters by season.  What I'd like to do next is look back 5 years (players whose careers have ended in the last couple of years) and 10 years (players who were part of the Johnnies' run to national prominance) and see what trends present themselves.

If you think there is a simpler, more effective way to accomplish this, I'd be more than happy to listen to suggestions.

[ritz72]

And after getting 4 All-Stars in 2008, St. John's only got 2 in 2009.  That's not a good trend.

Forgive me, and nothing against the kids that play in the All-Star game (as they are all very talented players), but as a high school assistant coach, I know of a number of kids that could have or should have been playing in that game but are held out because of coach politics, conference politics, etc., not to mention some kids take vacations or are otherwise unavailable for the game.   So I don't read TOO much into who plays in the game-- I take more stock into all-state teams, and even then-- politics play extremely heavy into that as well. 

If a coach doesn't lobby hard enough to get his kids in, or if another conference coach doesn't get along with a fellow conference coach, some very talented kids are left out of this game.  And I say this not because my school should have had some kids in this game-- rather, I have seen some kids in the conference not get into this game.  E.g. Harry Awe (now at SJU) was dynamite at Minnehaha Academy.  Rock solid, lights out-- carry the ball 30 times per game by diving into the middle and making something happen.  But because the Minnehaha coach resigned after the season, and a certain other coach in the conference is extremely dismissive of his opponents, and perhaps because the game interfered with summer baseball, Awe did not compete.  In my opinion, did he deserve it?  You bet.   And that is from an opponent's perspective even before he mentioned he was headed to SJU.

So TC, want to do the same calculation with all-state teams???

Don't know how it works now, but back in the day coaches had to nominate, and many did not fill out the proper paperwork.

[ritz72]

Im back!!!!

I am not going to even begin to read the 100+ pages that have acumulated.  My guess is this is what I missed...

1.  Hockey Talk
2.  Hot chicks
3.  see 1 and 2

If anyone read yesterday's SC Times, yours truly was included!  New job title!

[johnnie_esq]

So TC, want to do the same calculation with all-state teams???

I would love to.  Where are the all-state rosters? 

Like you said, you run into a lot of the same issues whether you are looking at all-star games, all-state teams, stats, awards, whatever...  But if there are players that I am missing, I would guess they are distributed somewhat similarly to the players I'm catching.  Are you suggesting there is some sort of selection bias with using the All-Star Game rosters?  (One that I considered is transfers, where I think the Johnnies would make up some ground a few years after the fact.)

That's the problem with evaluating college recruiting, especially at smaller schools, especially in football:  most kids don't get more than 10 games a season, play on teams with widely disparate talent, play against teams with widely disparate talent, and with no way for any one person to see even a small percentage of the total play that takes place.

The motivation behind choosing the All-Star Game roster for this was simple convenience.  There's a website that has the rosters by season.  What I'd like to do next is look back 5 years (players whose careers have ended in the last couple of years) and 10 years (players who were part of the Johnnies' run to national prominance) and see what trends present themselves.

If you think there is a simpler, more effective way to accomplish this, I'd be more than happy to listen to suggestions.

The all-star game roster isn't bad, but it isn't necessarily indicative of the *best* players.  Sure, many of the best participate, but the inclusion or exclusion is not indicative of the quality of players when coaches err with procedural issues which have more to do with the inclusion or exclusion.  For example, there are no kids out of Edina this year; nor Stillwater, nor Northfield.  But you'll see a number of individuals showing up on the all-state teams that are not on the roster for this game.  That isn't a knock on those who do play in the game-- but more indicative of noting that lack of participation in the game may not mean a disqualification from the "top" players in the state. 

The All-State teams are located here.  Now, the All-State team is an AP-team, meaning, the press votes upon them.  That isn't bad, but there is a skew of media in the state, as certain communities give more press to their high school teams than others, and some also get press from regional communications-- as well as the lobbying from High School coaches can help (e.g. call from a coach to an AP voter reminding them of player X's stats).  But it is a bit more indicative of success since it doesn't rely on a coach to fill out the forms.

The problem isn't so much the lack of games, but the unreliability of competition.  Without meaning to offend Leevon Perry of St. Agnes (who has monster size, by the way), but he was competing against St. John's Prep while Kevin Potas of Wayzata was competing against Minnetonka.  Can you really gauge the two on a level playing field for inclusion in an all-state team?  Isn't it more impressive to see 3A Glencoe-Silver Lake's success against the many 4A teams in the Wright County instead of 3A DeLaSalle's dominance of 1A St. Bernard's in the Tri-Metro?

It makes a big difference up and down classes over the course of a full season. 

Most telling to me is the lack of kids on either of these lists from Albany, Melrose, St. Cloud Tech, Holdingford, Minnewaska, Sartell, Sauk Rapids, etc.-- SJU's recruiting backyard.  That is disturbing since the ones we are reading about in the Times tend to be from these schools.  Either the AP list is screwy or we just aren't going to see the talent we did in 1998-2003 from these places.

[finsleft]

Most telling to me is the lack of kids on either of these lists from Albany, Melrose, St. Cloud Tech, Holdingford, Minnewaska, Sartell, Sauk Rapids, etc.-- SJU's recruiting backyard.  That is disturbing since the ones we are reading about in the Times tend to be from these schools.  Either the AP list is screwy or we just aren't going to see the talent we did in 1998-2003 from these places.

Well, after the Duffman era, there was an obvious precipitous drop in the local talent pool.

[Retired Old Rat]

From the St. Cloud Times:  Ritz Update

[Redtooth]

And after getting 4 All-Stars in 2008, St. John's only got 2 in 2009.  That's not a good trend.

Forgive me, and nothing against the kids that play in the All-Star game (as they are all very talented players), but as a high school assistant coach, I know of a number of kids that could have or should have been playing in that game but are held out because of coach politics, conference politics, etc., not to mention some kids take vacations or are otherwise unavailable for the game.   So I don't read TOO much into who plays in the game-- I take more stock into all-state teams, and even then-- politics play extremely heavy into that as well. 

If a coach doesn't lobby hard enough to get his kids in, or if another conference coach doesn't get along with a fellow conference coach, some very talented kids are left out of this game.  And I say this not because my school should have had some kids in this game-- rather, I have seen some kids in the conference not get into this game.  E.g. Harry Awe (now at SJU) was dynamite at Minnehaha Academy.  Rock solid, lights out-- carry the ball 30 times per game by diving into the middle and making something happen.  But because the Minnehaha coach resigned after the season, and a certain other coach in the conference is extremely dismissive of his opponents, and perhaps because the game interfered with summer baseball, Awe did not compete.  In my opinion, did he deserve it?  You bet.   And that is from an opponent's perspective even before he mentioned he was headed to SJU.

So TC, want to do the same calculation with all-state teams???

Don't know how it works now, but back in the day coaches had to nominate, and many did not fill out the proper paperwork.

Ritz weren't you the MVP of the All-Star game your senior year?  I thought you passed for over 500 yards and 7TDs and scored the winning TD on a sweep you hammered into the end zone with no time left in the game........

Congratulations on the new gig.

[bennie]

It is good to see a nice Minnesota boy nominated for the Lady Byng. Congratulations to Zach Parise.

[TC]

If anyone read yesterday's SC Times, yours truly was included!  New job title!

Congrats!  I know you've been looking for ways to spend more time with middle school students--this should certainly help!

The problem isn't so much the lack of games, but the unreliability of competition.  Without meaning to offend Leevon Perry of St. Agnes (who has monster size, by the way), but he was competing against St. John's Prep while Kevin Potas of Wayzata was competing against Minnetonka.  Can you really gauge the two on a level playing field for inclusion in an all-state team?  Isn't it more impressive to see 3A Glencoe-Silver Lake's success against the many 4A teams in the Wright County instead of 3A DeLaSalle's dominance of 1A St. Bernard's in the Tri-Metro?

This is the point that I wasn't eloquent or knowledgeable enough to articulate.  All I am looking for is a simple way to somewhat objectively look for the recruiting trends from the last decade that I'm afraid are present.  I'll look into the All State teams some more if I can.

[retagent]

Not tht I consider the Lady Byng an award to be compared to the Norris or the Hart - although it's nice to be in the mix - I'm a little miffed That Nicklas Bacstrom (C) Washington Capitals wasn't nominated. Speaking of Zach Parise, does anyone know why Shattuck St Mary's doesn't participate in the MN State High School Hockey Tournament? Are they operating under rules that make them ineligible?

[ritz72]

And after getting 4 All-Stars in 2008, St. John's only got 2 in 2009.  That's not a good trend.

Forgive me, and nothing against the kids that play in the All-Star game (as they are all very talented players), but as a high school assistant coach, I know of a number of kids that could have or should have been playing in that game but are held out because of coach politics, conference politics, etc., not to mention some kids take vacations or are otherwise unavailable for the game.   So I don't read TOO much into who plays in the game-- I take more stock into all-state teams, and even then-- politics play extremely heavy into that as well. 

If a coach doesn't lobby hard enough to get his kids in, or if another conference coach doesn't get along with a fellow conference coach, some very talented kids are left out of this game.  And I say this not because my school should have had some kids in this game-- rather, I have seen some kids in the conference not get into this game.  E.g. Harry Awe (now at SJU) was dynamite at Minnehaha Academy.  Rock solid, lights out-- carry the ball 30 times per game by diving into the middle and making something happen.  But because the Minnehaha coach resigned after the season, and a certain other coach in the conference is extremely dismissive of his opponents, and perhaps because the game interfered with summer baseball, Awe did not compete.  In my opinion, did he deserve it?  You bet.   And that is from an opponent's perspective even before he mentioned he was headed to SJU.

So TC, want to do the same calculation with all-state teams???

Don't know how it works now, but back in the day coaches had to nominate, and many did not fill out the proper paperwork.

Ritz weren't you the MVP of the All-Star game your senior year?  I thought you passed for over 500 yards and 7TDs and scored the winning TD on a sweep you hammered into the end zone with no time left in the game........

Congratulations on the new gig.

I wasnt allowed to play in that event...long story involving malt beverages, my father, and 3 state troopers...

News at 11

[sjusection105]

Im back!!!!

I am not going to even begin to read the 100+ pages that have acumulated.  My guess is this is what I missed...

1.  Hockey Talk
2.  Hot chicks
3.  see 1 and 2

If anyone read yesterday's SC Times, yours truly was included!  New job title!

I for one am glad you're back Ritz....... so how was re-hab, the 7th time around, did you finally get it right? 

[raiderguy]

TC,

What I said on the WW board.

Are you planning on attending the All-Star game again this year?

[OzJohnnie]

Kubiak's Aussie mate would be pretty happy today.  Yesterday his mate's Essondon Bombers pinched a victory over Collingwood in an incredibly exciting game.  I was looking for some youtube video that Kubiak could forward, but I didn't find any.  I did come across these four vids that I may have posted before but they are still a good view for those interested:

Top Hits of 2008

Top Marks of 2008

Top Goals of 2008

Top Clangers (mistakes) of 2008

And so as not be be completely off topic, I did find that the confrontation between Lance Leipold and the reporter/student was captured on someone's camera phone.  Follow this link and we see Leipold approaching the student reporter just after reading the editorial.

[Ralph Turner]

Kubiak's Aussie mate would be pretty happy today.  Yesterday his mate's Essondon Bombers pinched a victory over Collingwood in an incredibly exciting game.  I was looking for some youtube video that Kubiak could forward, but I didn't find any.  I did come across these four vids that I may have posted before but they are still a good view for those interested:

Top Hits of 2008

Top Marks of 2008

Top Goals of 2008

Top Clangers (mistakes) of 2008

And so as not be be completely off topic, I did find that the confrontation between Lance Leipold and the reporter/student was captured on someone's camera phone.  Follow this link and we see Leipold approaching the student reporter just after reading the editorial.

Oz, I saw the top hits vid and wondered, what is the incident of serious concussion in the AFL?

It is only a matter of time before some AFL star is killed with the way the game has sped up.  There is sophisticated helmet technology that could be developed for the game, before something horrible happened.