FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WithasilentK]

Regarding the Wimmer/Ziller discussion as a whole, it's really dangerous to compare D3 stats between players on different teams for a number of reasons:  there is a huge discrepency between talent levels of opposing teams, such a short schedule (amplifying the first issue), different playing styles (and some teams that are virtually incapable of passing the ball), talent discrepencies between teams of the players in question (i.e., Ziller was by far the most talented player for Carleton, but would be one of many talented defenders on another MIAC team), etc.

For example, last year's Knights' non-conference opponents were Cornell (0-10, 0-8 in the IIAC) and Macalester (not good at football)--meaning 20% of their schedule was made up of pretty laughable competition.  (Ziller had 2 forced fumbles against Cornell and led the team with 9 tackles against Mac while forcing and recovering a fumble).

Also, Ziller had a lot of opportunities for tackles last season that he wouldn't have had if he had Nick Gunderson on the defensive line and Ryan Wimmer at linebacker.  The fact that he (presumably) had inferior talent around him means he will have more opportunities to make plays. 

In many seasons, St. John's  top defenders might only play a handful of full games prior to the postseason (in 2003, for example, the Johnnies won 5 of their regular season games by 39 or more points and backups saw a ton of playing time).  That situation is much less common for a team like Carleton.

Conversely, St. John's defensive players never need to face the St. John's offense in a game (save your jokes about how they could have padded their stats against the 2008 Johnnies...).  And a stud defender from Carleton never gets a chance to take on the (typically) weaker Knight offense, though that also didn't have a huge effect last season.

That's a ridiculously long winded way of saying that coaches who persumably watch each team at least a few times on film probably have a much more educated opinion of players on other teams than fans who likely only see opposing players once and then without the benefit of film (or video or holograms or whatever isn't going to get 87897654564324897 condescending posts about how they use film or video or holograms or whatever now).  If the coaches think Ziller was a better player than Wimmer last year, I tend to agree.  I certainly don't think it is a question that can be answered just by looking at stats.

For what it's worth, I didn't think Wimmer was anything special last year.  That's not a shot a VOJ's great football mind as he undoubtedly watched him much more closely and more often than I did.  I just don't think a player is automatically better because he wears a red jersey.

And talk of a team winning a conference title or the last million games against another team having an impact on an individual award is just as silly as the retards who aren't going to vote for Joe Mauer for MVP because he's had to haul the worthless carcasses of Nick Punto, Matt Tolbert, Delmon Young, Alexi Casilla and Armando Gabino, et. al, into playoff contention singlehandedly or Zack Greinke for Cy Young because the Royals extended their streak of fielding a minor league lineup into a third decade.

SJU's defense is currently the 8th best in a nine-team conference, allowing nearly 400 yards a game through three contests. The Johnnies have allowed the most rushing yards in the league and are the second-worst pass defense in the MIAC. Call me crazy, but I doubt you'll be seeing any defensive all-americans this year.

Talk like this is even sillier.  What the St. John's defense has done against reasonably competent offenses like UW-River Falls, UW-Eau Claire and Concordia compared to what Hamline has done against Martin Luther and Gustavus doesn't tell us a whole lot, does it?  I mean, we can agree that St. John's has a better defense than Hamline, right?

Plus, it's sorta dishonest to say that St. John's has allowed the most rushing yards without mentioning that they are one of only 4 conference teams to play 3 games so far, one of those games was against Concordia and another was against the first-team all-WIAC RB from a year ago, and they have faced the most rushing attempts.

I have a hard time drawing the conclusion that the Johnnies can't have any good defensive players from their stats so far this season, especially with how small of a sample those stats are drawing from.

ou know what the funniest thing about this discussion is...

The MIAC doesn't award a DPOY.  So the fact that VOJ thought Ziller got the defensive player of the year over Wimmer must mean that he knows deep inside that Ziller was a better player than him.

Last comment about this and then I'll drop it...

I don't agree with all you say but the main things are...

-(typically) weak Knight offense, Carleton had the #1 offense in the MIAC last year (though everyone still somehow thought Auggie Tech's was better), OK I just went back and read your post and you said that wasn't a factor last year

-the Johnnies did not blow out many (any?) opponents last year, so Wimmer did play pretty much the whole game in every game, and he did not have Gunderson in front of him last year

-by far the most talented on last years Carleton team?  They had 2 great receivers and the best quarterback in the MIAC.  That being said, Ziller was still the most talented.

-And as far as non-conference goes...Ziller lead the MIAC in-conference in tackles as well

But it really doesn't matter, Wimmer's a good linebacker and no one has said anything to the contrary.

[VOJ]

A good take, TC, and I'll admit that I played dirty with the rushing stats. That should have made it easily refuted by anyone willing to do the legwork. Apparently the Johnnies are all willing to spout off without checking the facts, 'cept you

As for Haugen...winning can cure a lot of ills. I've been a critic of the hiring process and his decision to scrap the old offense for a variety of reasons. My main issue is simple — I don't think you can convert to a dramatically different offense and still have a successful season. I mean, ask Rich Rod how that went last fall for the maize and blue.

I fully expect the lack of quality bodies/experience at FB and TE to cripple a struggling offense this weekend when the Johnnies come to town. I mean, the Gusties scored 30 points last week against Hamline...but one touchdown came on a blocked punt and another came off a pass that ricocheted off the hands of one player and a helmet of another. The GW touchdown sounds like it came on a defensive breakdown from the Pipes. I love winning, but some better efficiency will be needed if Wonka is going to be singing the Gustie rouser on Saturday.

And while I'm looking at the stats...the Tommies currently have the best offense and best defense in terms of points scored and points allowed. They probably have the best kick returner in the conference, too. Could be a doozy up in Collegeville later this year...

Wonka...is this the same offense where the players would line up, and then look over at the sidelines and the OC would change it up doing some wild signals?  I am not sure that offense worked really well for you anyway...24 total points against SJU in 3 years...

[VOJ]

Regarding the Wimmer/Ziller discussion as a whole, it's really dangerous to compare D3 stats between players on different teams for a number of reasons:  there is a huge discrepency between talent levels of opposing teams, such a short schedule (amplifying the first issue), different playing styles (and some teams that are virtually incapable of passing the ball), talent discrepencies between teams of the players in question (i.e., Ziller was by far the most talented player for Carleton, but would be one of many talented defenders on another MIAC team), etc.

For example, last year's Knights' non-conference opponents were Cornell (0-10, 0-8 in the IIAC) and Macalester (not good at football)--meaning 20% of their schedule was made up of pretty laughable competition.  (Ziller had 2 forced fumbles against Cornell and led the team with 9 tackles against Mac while forcing and recovering a fumble).

Also, Ziller had a lot of opportunities for tackles last season that he wouldn't have had if he had Nick Gunderson on the defensive line and Ryan Wimmer at linebacker.  The fact that he (presumably) had inferior talent around him means he will have more opportunities to make plays. 

In many seasons, St. John's  top defenders might only play a handful of full games prior to the postseason (in 2003, for example, the Johnnies won 5 of their regular season games by 39 or more points and backups saw a ton of playing time).  That situation is much less common for a team like Carleton.

Conversely, St. John's defensive players never need to face the St. John's offense in a game (save your jokes about how they could have padded their stats against the 2008 Johnnies...).  And a stud defender from Carleton never gets a chance to take on the (typically) weaker Knight offense, though that also didn't have a huge effect last season.

That's a ridiculously long winded way of saying that coaches who persumably watch each team at least a few times on film probably have a much more educated opinion of players on other teams than fans who likely only see opposing players once and then without the benefit of film (or video or holograms or whatever isn't going to get 87897654564324897 condescending posts about how they use film or video or holograms or whatever now).  If the coaches think Ziller was a better player than Wimmer last year, I tend to agree.  I certainly don't think it is a question that can be answered just by looking at stats.

For what it's worth, I didn't think Wimmer was anything special last year.  That's not a shot a VOJ's great football mind as he undoubtedly watched him much more closely and more often than I did.  I just don't think a player is automatically better because he wears a red jersey.

And talk of a team winning a conference title or the last million games against another team having an impact on an individual award is just as silly as the retards who aren't going to vote for Joe Mauer for MVP because he's had to haul the worthless carcasses of Nick Punto, Matt Tolbert, Delmon Young, Alexi Casilla and Armando Gabino, et. al, into playoff contention singlehandedly or Zack Greinke for Cy Young because the Royals extended their streak of fielding a minor league lineup into a third decade.

SJU's defense is currently the 8th best in a nine-team conference, allowing nearly 400 yards a game through three contests. The Johnnies have allowed the most rushing yards in the league and are the second-worst pass defense in the MIAC. Call me crazy, but I doubt you'll be seeing any defensive all-americans this year.

Talk like this is even sillier.  What the St. John's defense has done against reasonably competent offenses like UW-River Falls, UW-Eau Claire and Concordia compared to what Hamline has done against Martin Luther and Gustavus doesn't tell us a whole lot, does it?  I mean, we can agree that St. John's has a better defense than Hamline, right?

Plus, it's sorta dishonest to say that St. John's has allowed the most rushing yards without mentioning that they are one of only 4 conference teams to play 3 games so far, one of those games was against Concordia and another was against the first-team all-WIAC RB from a year ago, and they have faced the most rushing attempts.

I have a hard time drawing the conclusion that the Johnnies can't have any good defensive players from their stats so far this season, especially with how small of a sample those stats are drawing from.

ou know what the funniest thing about this discussion is...

The MIAC doesn't award a DPOY.  So the fact that VOJ thought Ziller got the defensive player of the year over Wimmer must mean that he knows deep inside that Ziller was a better player than him.

Last comment about this and then I'll drop it...

I don't agree with all you say but the main things are...

-(typically) weak Knight offense, Carleton had the #1 offense in the MIAC last year (though everyone still somehow thought Auggie Tech's was better), OK I just went back and read your post and you said that wasn't a factor last year

-the Johnnies did not blow out many (any?) opponents last year, so Wimmer did play pretty much the whole game in every game, and he did not have Gunderson in front of him last year

-by far the most talented on last years Carleton team?  They had 2 great receivers and the best quarterback in the MIAC.  That being said, Ziller was still the most talented.

-And as far as non-conference goes...Ziller lead the MIAC in-conference in tackles as well

But it really doesn't matter, Wimmer's a good linebacker and no one has said anything to the contrary.

The award was through College Sporting News, Mapping the MIAC by Rich Mies...and I will stick by my original point, someone had to make tackles, it just happened to be Ziller the last line of defense before lining up for the extra point...I am not saying he is/was not a good player, but on the statisticly worst D in the league AND in a mediocre year in the MIAC???  Oh and on the final touchdown of Carleton's season, it was a fade route not anything over the middle that Wimmer could have done anything about...didn't really matter in the way things turned out anyway.

[cobbernation]

"Hamline" and "difficult to win easily" are not two statements I have ever uttered.  During my 4 years at SJU, we outscored the Pipers 187-3 

(Honestly, that is hard to comprehend!)

Duff,

The two games at Hamline the cobbers won 22-3 and 24-7.  The two games at home against Hamline it was 50-14 and 42-0.  I was just stating how it's much more difficult to go into an away stadium and blow a team out.  Unless you are mount union and blow out everyone except UW-Whitewater.

[PRF2009A]

The award was through College Sporting News, Mapping the MIAC by Rich Mies...and I will stick by my original point, someone had to make tackles, it just happened to be Ziller the last line of defense before lining up for the extra point...I am not saying he is/was not a good player, but on the statisticly worst D in the league AND in a mediocre year in the MIAC???  Oh and on the final touchdown of Carleton's season, it was a fade route not anything over the middle that Wimmer could have done anything about...didn't really matter in the way things turned out anyway.

Fade route over 2 linebackers and a DB in triple coverage if you were watching.... but glad you could dig up some more amazing in depth "announcer" knowlege. 

[Touchdown Tommy]

CNation:  I for one think that game at Arden Hills tomorrow is gonna be a barnburner.  Wish I could be there as I think that is a "Pick Em" in Vegas.  Should be a terrific game and I would not be one bit surprised to see the Cobbers bounce back with a win.

Glad to see TC made it back from the Windy City where DustySJU has taken his place.  Wonka was subsequently bitch slapped....

[WithasilentK]

Regarding the Wimmer/Ziller discussion as a whole, it's really dangerous to compare D3 stats between players on different teams for a number of reasons:  there is a huge discrepency between talent levels of opposing teams, such a short schedule (amplifying the first issue), different playing styles (and some teams that are virtually incapable of passing the ball), talent discrepencies between teams of the players in question (i.e., Ziller was by far the most talented player for Carleton, but would be one of many talented defenders on another MIAC team), etc.

For example, last year's Knights' non-conference opponents were Cornell (0-10, 0-8 in the IIAC) and Macalester (not good at football)--meaning 20% of their schedule was made up of pretty laughable competition.  (Ziller had 2 forced fumbles against Cornell and led the team with 9 tackles against Mac while forcing and recovering a fumble).

Also, Ziller had a lot of opportunities for tackles last season that he wouldn't have had if he had Nick Gunderson on the defensive line and Ryan Wimmer at linebacker.  The fact that he (presumably) had inferior talent around him means he will have more opportunities to make plays. 

In many seasons, St. John's  top defenders might only play a handful of full games prior to the postseason (in 2003, for example, the Johnnies won 5 of their regular season games by 39 or more points and backups saw a ton of playing time).  That situation is much less common for a team like Carleton.

Conversely, St. John's defensive players never need to face the St. John's offense in a game (save your jokes about how they could have padded their stats against the 2008 Johnnies...).  And a stud defender from Carleton never gets a chance to take on the (typically) weaker Knight offense, though that also didn't have a huge effect last season.

That's a ridiculously long winded way of saying that coaches who persumably watch each team at least a few times on film probably have a much more educated opinion of players on other teams than fans who likely only see opposing players once and then without the benefit of film (or video or holograms or whatever isn't going to get 87897654564324897 condescending posts about how they use film or video or holograms or whatever now).  If the coaches think Ziller was a better player than Wimmer last year, I tend to agree.  I certainly don't think it is a question that can be answered just by looking at stats.

For what it's worth, I didn't think Wimmer was anything special last year.  That's not a shot a VOJ's great football mind as he undoubtedly watched him much more closely and more often than I did.  I just don't think a player is automatically better because he wears a red jersey.

And talk of a team winning a conference title or the last million games against another team having an impact on an individual award is just as silly as the retards who aren't going to vote for Joe Mauer for MVP because he's had to haul the worthless carcasses of Nick Punto, Matt Tolbert, Delmon Young, Alexi Casilla and Armando Gabino, et. al, into playoff contention singlehandedly or Zack Greinke for Cy Young because the Royals extended their streak of fielding a minor league lineup into a third decade.

SJU's defense is currently the 8th best in a nine-team conference, allowing nearly 400 yards a game through three contests. The Johnnies have allowed the most rushing yards in the league and are the second-worst pass defense in the MIAC. Call me crazy, but I doubt you'll be seeing any defensive all-americans this year.

Talk like this is even sillier.  What the St. John's defense has done against reasonably competent offenses like UW-River Falls, UW-Eau Claire and Concordia compared to what Hamline has done against Martin Luther and Gustavus doesn't tell us a whole lot, does it?  I mean, we can agree that St. John's has a better defense than Hamline, right?

Plus, it's sorta dishonest to say that St. John's has allowed the most rushing yards without mentioning that they are one of only 4 conference teams to play 3 games so far, one of those games was against Concordia and another was against the first-team all-WIAC RB from a year ago, and they have faced the most rushing attempts.

I have a hard time drawing the conclusion that the Johnnies can't have any good defensive players from their stats so far this season, especially with how small of a sample those stats are drawing from.

ou know what the funniest thing about this discussion is...

The MIAC doesn't award a DPOY.  So the fact that VOJ thought Ziller got the defensive player of the year over Wimmer must mean that he knows deep inside that Ziller was a better player than him.

Last comment about this and then I'll drop it...

I don't agree with all you say but the main things are...

-(typically) weak Knight offense, Carleton had the #1 offense in the MIAC last year (though everyone still somehow thought Auggie Tech's was better), OK I just went back and read your post and you said that wasn't a factor last year

-the Johnnies did not blow out many (any?) opponents last year, so Wimmer did play pretty much the whole game in every game, and he did not have Gunderson in front of him last year

-by far the most talented on last years Carleton team?  They had 2 great receivers and the best quarterback in the MIAC.  That being said, Ziller was still the most talented.

-And as far as non-conference goes...Ziller lead the MIAC in-conference in tackles as well

But it really doesn't matter, Wimmer's a good linebacker and no one has said anything to the contrary.

The award was through College Sporting News, Mapping the MIAC by Rich Mies...and I will stick by my original point, someone had to make tackles, it just happened to be Ziller the last line of defense before lining up for the extra point...I am not saying he is/was not a good player, but on the statisticly worst D in the league AND in a mediocre year in the MIAC???  Oh and on the final touchdown of Carleton's season, it was a fade route not anything over the middle that Wimmer could have done anything about...didn't really matter in the way things turned out anyway.

I just don't get your reasoning of last line of defense with many of his tackles not being farther than 4 or 5 yards downfield.  And last line of defense has nothing to do with his sacks, FF, Blocked kicks, TDs, INTs, etc.  I just don't think there is a coach in the MIAC that would've watched these two players play and vote Wimmer over Ziller.  Maybe if you watched 1 play the whole year and then watched the other play for one game, but not if you watched the season of both.

The MIAC being supposedly mediocre has absolutely nothing to do with which player deserved the award.

You are correct about the last play being a fade.  Check the rest of the drive.  There were numerous scrambles by Henfling that kept that drive alive and the 4th down play in the redzone was a slant, which is the linebackers responsibility to get underneath.

[57Johnnie]

Hey 57 - Can you go over to the Fat Tire Brewery and ask them to lower their prices so I don't have to take out a loan to purchase their fine product?

I'm about 350 miles from Ft. Collins so think I'll decline. Around here it's priced the same as Corona and much less than Avalanche so 'case closed'  8)
Since we can't get Leinies Octoberfest we will have Fat Tire on tap at our Octoberfest on the 3rd. 

I know its not a "German" based product but you could always buy Sam Adams Light...or Smith Wick...quality brew all the way around...

I don't know if it is still true but a few years ago Sam Adams was the only American made beer that passed the German 'Reinheitsgebot'.  

[finsleft]

Finsleft walked into a jewelry store one Friday evening with a beautiful young gal at his side. He told the jeweler he was looking for a special ring for his new girlfriend. The jeweler looked through his stock and brought out a $5,000 ring.

Fins carefully examined the ring.

Then he looked at radiant face of his new girlfriend.

"No," he said to the jeweler. "I'd like to see some thing MORE special."

At that statement, the jeweler went to his special stock and brought another ring over.  "Sir, here's a stunning ring at only $40,000." the jeweler said.

The young lady's eyes sparkled and her whole body trembled with excitement. Fins, seeing this said, "We'll take it."

The jeweler asked how payment would be made and Fins stated, "By check.  I know you need to make sure my check is good, so I'll write the check now and you can call the bank Monday to verify the funds. We'll pick the ring up Monday afternoon."

Monday morning, the jeweler phoned Fins. "There's no money in that account."

"I know," Fins said, "But let me tell you about my weekend!"

[cobbernation]

TDT,

Where will you be on Saturday? At hamline?

[Touchdown Tommy]

TDT,

Where will you be on Saturday? At hamline?

Ha CNation you must be joking.  Did you read my piece this week on www.johnniefootball.com?  I'll be holding court in St. Peter.  Which reminds me, I am gonna call Grillmaster Veek now.  He told me 2 weeks ago he'd make the trip to GAC.  100-1 odds he has changed his mind in the mean time...

[Willy Wonka]

Why the uproar? I posted 100% factual information...I just made it say what I needed it to say. Similar to Obama's 47 million...or was it 30 million?

[sjusection105]

Why the uproar? I posted 100% factual information...I just made it say what I needed it to say. Similar to Obama's 47 million...or was it 30 million?

+K Wonka 

[Retired Old Rat]

Why the uproar? I posted 100% factual information...I just made it say what I needed it to say. Similar to Obama's 47 million...or was it 30 million?

-k 

[Retired Old Rat]

Wonka, where is the rest of the GAC crew on here?  It's no fun trading barbs with just you.