FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WashedUp]

The new top 25 poll is out and has SJU moving up to the 4th spot.  There has been chatter that Linfield would leapfrog SJU perhaps, but Linfield is ranked 5th for the time being.  I am looking forward to the regional rankings.  Question for the experts:  Will SJU slip in next week's rankings because of the bye week?  With the way the brackets have been made the last couple years (which has been an improvement by the way), it seems that staying in the top 4 could be a big advantage for seeding in the playoffs.

I don't see the bye hurting SJU's ranking.  Linfield is playing a winless Puget Sound team this week and also has a bye next week.  No reason for any rearranging to happen as a result of this week.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The new top 25 poll is out and has SJU moving up to the 4th spot.  There has been chatter that Linfield would leapfrog SJU perhaps, but Linfield is ranked 5th for the time being.  I am looking forward to the regional rankings.  Question for the experts:  Will SJU slip in next week's rankings because of the bye week?  With the way the brackets have been made the last couple years (which has been an improvement by the way), it seems that staying in the top 4 could be a big advantage for seeding in the playoffs.

I don't see the bye hurting SJU's ranking.  Linfield is playing a winless Puget Sound team this week and also has a bye next week.  No reason for any rearranging to happen as a result of this week.

It's true that there is probably nothing Linfield could do to UPS to alter the poll standings.  Unfortunately (for SJU), the poll had NOTHING to do (officially, at least) with the seedings.  Due to strength of schedule, you should probably be more concerned whether or not you will be ahead of Central than whether or not Linfield will pass you (in the committee's eyes, they probably already have).

[raidertown]

if whitewater is moved to the North and St. Johns and Linfield both go undefeated do you guys believe that st. johns would get the #1 even tough Linfield has a much better SOS?

[chewey]

SJU has the strength of schedule in my opinion.  Willamette lost to Concordia who is a lower=placed MIAC team this year.  I don't know much about Occidental this year but Hardin-Simmons is and was a bit over-ranked.  Historically, the South teams have been weaker than the West, or even the MIAC (at least St. John's, Bethel and, to some extent, St. Olaf).  Put the two WIAC schools against Occidental and H-S and the WIAC schools win, in my opinion.  Linfield is a very good team and deserves to be where they are but I do not believe that it should be based on SOS.  Had SJU opened up with Northwestern or Crown, I think one could have a SOS point.  The people who run this site and the people who do that sort of thing really don't like St. John's and really have no respect for the MIAC.  All one needs to do to see this is review Ryan Coleman's haphazard, incoherent and contradictory blathering of a week or two ago.  They seem to have a love-fest with Linfield and some others.  I can understand the Linfield thing because they usually have a great team and they have a great program.  I like them too but I don't think they should be seeded ahead of St. John's based on SOS and the same goes for Central who also has a very good team this year.  While I do not have any present direct evidence on it, I really don't even think the boys of this site care for Mount but they can't come out against MUC like they do against St. John's because MUC simply beats everyone all the time. 

[Pat Coleman]

SJU has the strength of schedule in my opinion.  Willamette lost to Concordia who is a lower=placed MIAC team this year.  I don't know much about Occidental this year but Hardin-Simmons is and was a bit over-ranked.  Historically, the South teams have been weaker than the West, or even the MIAC (at least St. John's, Bethel and, to some extent, St. Olaf).  Put the two WIAC schools against Occidental and H-S and the WIAC schools win, in my opinion.  Linfield is a very good team and deserves to be where they are but I do not believe that it should be based on SOS.  Had SJU opened up with Northwestern or Crown, I think one could have a SOS point.

The committee doesn't really use that type of opinion-based strength of schedule assessment, however. They use the formulas they've used over the past few years and those numbers are posted here:

http://www.d3football.com/strength-of-schedule/2009

BTW, Chewey, Ryan doesn't even come close to running this site. When I look to Ryan for an editorial decision you can go ahead and shoot me. He's a tech guy and photographer.

[Mr. Ypsi]

SJU has the strength of schedule in my opinion.  Willamette lost to Concordia who is a lower=placed MIAC team this year.  I don't know much about Occidental this year but Hardin-Simmons is and was a bit over-ranked.  Historically, the South teams have been weaker than the West, or even the MIAC (at least St. John's, Bethel and, to some extent, St. Olaf).  Put the two WIAC schools against Occidental and H-S and the WIAC schools win, in my opinion.  Linfield is a very good team and deserves to be where they are but I do not believe that it should be based on SOS.  Had SJU opened up with Northwestern or Crown, I think one could have a SOS point.  The people who run this site and the people who do that sort of thing really don't like St. John's and really have no respect for the MIAC.  All one needs to do to see this is review Ryan Coleman's haphazard, incoherent and contradictory blathering of a week or two ago.  They seem to have a love-fest with Linfield and some others.  I can understand the Linfield thing because they usually have a great team and they have a great program.  I like them too but I don't think they should be seeded ahead of St. John's based on SOS and the same goes for Central who also has a very good team this year.  While I do not have any present direct evidence on it, I really don't even think the boys of this site care for Mount but they can't come out against MUC like they do against St. John's because MUC simply beats everyone all the time.  

Um ....  You are aware, I trust, that the owner of this site (Ryan Coleman's big bother) lives in Minnesota?

A 'pity-party' for the MIAC might be a bit unseemly.

[EDIT: Goldurnit - Pat beat me to the post again!]

[Pat Coleman]

(Ryan Coleman's big bother)

This is actually a telling typo.

[Mr. Ypsi]

(Ryan Coleman's big bother)

This is actually a telling typo.

BIG Oopsy!

[sju56321]

I know officially this doesn't matter, but SJU playing at home would draw more dollars than Central or Linfield. If we go by those rankings, UWW would be about 5th in the West and we all that that isn't true. Obviously Central has had a geat season, but can they be rewarded playing Lakeland, while SJU has played two teams from the toughest conference in DIII, although not the better teams, it appears.

[Pat Coleman]

Where Lakeland doesn't help Central is in the OOWP. Lakeland's OWP is .452 and that drags Central's OOWP down. But not as much as UW-Stevens Point's .710 raised it.

River Falls and Eau Claire have high OWPs as well. OWP counts as two-thirds and OOWP as one-third, as the NCAA championships committee formalized a formula that some sports have been using for a while.

[bluenote]

The committee doesn't really use that type of opinion-based strength of schedule assessment, however. They use the formulas they've used over the past few years and those numbers are posted here:

http://www.d3football.com/strength-of-schedule/2009

So in viewing this info it will be interesting to see the 1st regional ranking that is coming out when?

[chewey]

SJU has the strength of schedule in my opinion.  Willamette lost to Concordia who is a lower=placed MIAC team this year.  I don't know much about Occidental this year but Hardin-Simmons is and was a bit over-ranked.  Historically, the South teams have been weaker than the West, or even the MIAC (at least St. John's, Bethel and, to some extent, St. Olaf).  Put the two WIAC schools against Occidental and H-S and the WIAC schools win, in my opinion.  Linfield is a very good team and deserves to be where they are but I do not believe that it should be based on SOS.  Had SJU opened up with Northwestern or Crown, I think one could have a SOS point.  The people who run this site and the people who do that sort of thing really don't like St. John's and really have no respect for the MIAC.  All one needs to do to see this is review Ryan Coleman's haphazard, incoherent and contradictory blathering of a week or two ago.  They seem to have a love-fest with Linfield and some others.  I can understand the Linfield thing because they usually have a great team and they have a great program.  I like them too but I don't think they should be seeded ahead of St. John's based on SOS and the same goes for Central who also has a very good team this year.  While I do not have any present direct evidence on it, I really don't even think the boys of this site care for Mount but they can't come out against MUC like they do against St. John's because MUC simply beats everyone all the time.  

Um ....  You are aware, I trust, that the owner of this site (Ryan Coleman's big bother) lives in Minnesota?

A 'pity-party' for the MIAC might be a bit unseemly.

[EDIT: Goldurnit - Pat beat me to the post again!]

Yes, I'm well aware of that.  The point is that there are teams that are believed to be over-rated (St. John's, despite its historic success against other leagues and the gaining strength of the MIAC, is a good example) and this probably tends to impact the judgment of those who make the determinations.  

[sju56321]

What is sort of weird about that is in conference play you would don't gain any ground. If a 5-1 team plays a 4-2 team and loses, then both are 5-2 and you lose ground, go from a .83 and . 66 to two .71, less than the average of .83 and .66. So, SJU was hurt by Wheaton's loss, just like Linfield would be hurt by a Oxy loss. Correct?

[wildcat11]

I know officially this doesn't matter, but SJU playing at home would draw more dollars than Central or Linfield.

Untrue.  Granted while SJU draws crazy numbers during the regular season those numbers fall off by over 1/2 during the playoffs:

Here are the attendance numbers from the last 5 SJU home playoff games:

2007 vs Redlands: 3,771
2005 vs Monmouth 3,681
2003 vs RPI: 2,830
2003 vs Linfield: 2,830
2003: St. Norberts: 2,892

Linfield home attendance numbers from last 5 home playoff games:

2005 vs Whitewater: 5,000
2005 vs Concordia: 4,000
2005 vs Oxy: 3,500
2004 vs Rowan: 4,000
2004 vs Oxy: 5,000

While Linfield numbers were estimates the Catdome was packed during those runs and I believe the numbers were probably between 3,500 - 4,500 per game.  I couldn't find the Central home playoff attendance.

[Pat Coleman]

Basically, but everyone in the conference gains overall if the conference does well in non-conference play. Since the conference is going to end up at .500 overall in MIAC games, the 20 non-conference games make the difference between playing a .600 team or a .400 team. (Or a .500 team with a split, or something else if there are non-regional games involved.)

And yes, when all of a sudden students have to pay because NCAA rules require it, attendance falls off almost everywhere in the early rounds of the playoffs.