FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hazzben]

@ smedindy:

The real question for DIII in the next 15 to 20 years is whether or not anyone will actually be able to afford it. The MIAC offers some great options for schools, but they are already cost restrictive. If trends continue with the current rate of tuition hikes (looking at the last 20 years), private schools are going to be almost totally unaffordable unless you're very wealthy. It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that when my son is ready to go to college that MIAC schools will cost $65,000 to $80,000 a year!  There is no possible way I'll be able to afford that, and I think most people would be in the same boat. Unfortunate, but that is the way we are trending.

[WithasilentK]

K- Not sure what I think about the MIAC this year. It was definitely down last year, a lot of parity that made things interesting, but down none the less. Look no further than the evidence from the playoffs (and I don't think anyone would have done any better than SJU)

Totally disagree abou Bethel. I'm not sure how they stack up nationally, but they are a vastly improved team from last year. Barring a late season collapse, their record alone will prove that. But they've gotten better in all phases: oline, qb, defense, wr and most importantly they are fairly healthy. Last year they lost arguably their two best players for the season.

I just don't agree with the first statement.  There seems to be absolutely no offense in the MIAC.  And I know defense wins championships (I don't necessarily agree with that, but will go with it), but the talent level on offense has severly declined.  Yes, SJU got whooped in the first round, but they were matched up against WW, and that was just a losing battle.  Had they, or Carleton for that matter, been matched up against someone like SJU likely will be this year, I bet they would have pulled out a win.

I only mean Bethel is about the same because they have two losses.  I agree they're improved, but I thought they started this improvement about halfway through the season last year.

[smedindy]

@ smedindy:

The real question for DIII in the next 15 to 20 years is whether or not anyone will actually be able to afford it. The MIAC offers some great options for schools, but they are already cost restrictive. If trends continue with the current rate of tuition hikes (looking at the last 20 years), private schools are going to be almost totally unaffordable unless you're very wealthy. It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that when my son is ready to go to college that MIAC schools will cost $65,000 to $80,000 a year!  There is no possible way I'll be able to afford that, and I think most people would be in the same boat. Unfortunate, but that is the way we are trending.

But that's the way it is nationally. Of the Top 100 schools with the highest tuition, the MIAC members are:

Carleton - 26
Macalester - 63
St. Olaf - 94

Considering that these are the D-1 scholarship schools (non-Ivy) in the Top 100, I think the MIAC is still a great value.

6. George Washington University   $40,392
9. Bucknell University   $39,434
10. Colgate University   $39,275
15. University of Richmond   $38,850
16. Tulane University   $38,664
27. Hobart and William Smith College   $37,820
33. Duke University   $37,630
36. Georgetown University   $37,536
40. Boston College   $37,410
44. Lehigh University   $37,250
46. University of Southern California   $37,096
47. Wake Forest University   $36,975
50. Villanova University   $36,950
57. Northwestern University   $36,756
59. College of the Holy Cross   $36,710
60. Pepperdine University   $36,650
61. Boston University   $36,540
72. Vanderbilt University   $36,100
74. Stanford University   $36,030
76. Lafayette College   $35,904
81. Fairfield University   $35,510
83. Loyola College in Maryland   $35,140
87. Santa Clara University   $34,950
89. University of Miami   $34,834
97. Furman University   $34,048
98. University of San Diego   $34,000
99. Loyola Marymount University   $33,901


http://www.campusgrotto.com/top-100-colleges-by-highest-tuition.html

The NESCAC is rife with expensive schools. Where is the law of diminishing returns? Is an education at Bates really worth that much more than Gustavus Adolphus or Concordia?

[bennie]

The only ones that truely know how the different schools scholarship/financial aid funding works are not on this board (and probably would not be sharing that info anyway), so posted comments are anedotal at best. One example does not a funding model make!  8)

[Touchdown Tommy]

Snooze.  Wake TDT up when there is some actual football chatter.  Or the Little Wiener Doggie gets mouthy.  This $$ discussion is boring.  Snooze.

[johnnie_esq]

@ smedindy:

The real question for DIII in the next 15 to 20 years is whether or not anyone will actually be able to afford it. The MIAC offers some great options for schools, but they are already cost restrictive. If trends continue with the current rate of tuition hikes (looking at the last 20 years), private schools are going to be almost totally unaffordable unless you're very wealthy. It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that when my son is ready to go to college that MIAC schools will cost $65,000 to $80,000 a year!  There is no possible way I'll be able to afford that, and I think most people would be in the same boat. Unfortunate, but that is the way we are trending.

But that's the way it is nationally. Of the Top 100 schools with the highest tuition, the MIAC members are:

Carleton - 26
Macalester - 63
St. Olaf - 94

Considering that these are the D-1 scholarship schools (non-Ivy) in the Top 100, I think the MIAC is still a great value.

6. George Washington University   $40,392
9. Bucknell University   $39,434
10. Colgate University   $39,275
15. University of Richmond   $38,850
16. Tulane University   $38,664
27. Hobart and William Smith College   $37,820
33. Duke University   $37,630
36. Georgetown University   $37,536
40. Boston College   $37,410
44. Lehigh University   $37,250
46. University of Southern California   $37,096
47. Wake Forest University   $36,975
50. Villanova University   $36,950
57. Northwestern University   $36,756
59. College of the Holy Cross   $36,710
60. Pepperdine University   $36,650
61. Boston University   $36,540
72. Vanderbilt University   $36,100
74. Stanford University   $36,030
76. Lafayette College   $35,904
81. Fairfield University   $35,510
83. Loyola College in Maryland   $35,140
87. Santa Clara University   $34,950
89. University of Miami   $34,834
97. Furman University   $34,048
98. University of San Diego   $34,000
99. Loyola Marymount University   $33,901


http://www.campusgrotto.com/top-100-colleges-by-highest-tuition.html

The NESCAC is rife with expensive schools. Where is the law of diminishing returns? Is an education at Bates really worth that much more than Gustavus Adolphus or Concordia?

Keep in mind the cost of living in Central Minnesota is significantly less than in Southern California, San Francisco, or the East Coast.  Things just may be 25% more expensive on the East Coast than in Central MN.  At least the beer is-- and for most college students, that is THE cost of living.

The nice thing about the MIAC is that their tuition range is all in the same ballpark; but I am somewhat familiar with how SJU sets its tuition each year and it is part science, part art.  For all schools, if your tuition is too low you get the reputation of being "cheap" and not good (see Augsburg).  If you are expensive you get the reputation for being a very good value.  However stupid it sounds, tuition will rise as long as people will still pay it. 

I am less than thrilled with how financial aid is funded at SJU, and however ingenious it is, I find it quite inefficient and manipulative.  But that is the way just about all schools develop their tuition numbers-- and I guess that's the way they play the game.

[WithasilentK]

Sad thing about that list is that it is only tuition.  Add in Room and board, etc... each of those schools is pushing 50K and up.

Good thing about that list is it put TDT to sleep.

[hazzben]

@ smedindy:

The real question for DIII in the next 15 to 20 years is whether or not anyone will actually be able to afford it. The MIAC offers some great options for schools, but they are already cost restrictive. If trends continue with the current rate of tuition hikes (looking at the last 20 years), private schools are going to be almost totally unaffordable unless you're very wealthy. It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that when my son is ready to go to college that MIAC schools will cost $65,000 to $80,000 a year!  There is no possible way I'll be able to afford that, and I think most people would be in the same boat. Unfortunate, but that is the way we are trending.

But that's the way it is nationally. Of the Top 100 schools with the highest tuition, the MIAC members are:

Carleton - 26
Macalester - 63
St. Olaf - 94

Considering that these are the D-1 scholarship schools (non-Ivy) in the Top 100, I think the MIAC is still a great value.

http://www.campusgrotto.com/top-100-colleges-by-highest-tuition.html

The NESCAC is rife with expensive schools. Where is the law of diminishing returns? Is an education at Bates really worth that much more than Gustavus Adolphus or Concordia?

Keep in mind the cost of living in Central Minnesota is significantly less than in Southern California, San Francisco, or the East Coast.  Things just may be 25% more expensive on the East Coast than in Central MN.  At least the beer is-- and for most college students, that is THE cost of living.

The nice thing about the MIAC is that their tuition range is all in the same ballpark; but I am somewhat familiar with how SJU sets its tuition each year and it is part science, part art.  For all schools, if your tuition is too low you get the reputation of being "cheap" and not good (see Augsburg).  If you are expensive you get the reputation for being a very good value.  However stupid it sounds, tuition will rise as long as people will still pay it. 

I am less than thrilled with how financial aid is funded at SJU, and however ingenious it is, I find it quite inefficient and manipulative.  But that is the way just about all schools develop their tuition numbers-- and I guess that's the way they play the game.

My point isn't that the MIAC or other private DIII schools are not good value.  I think dollar for dollar they match up well.  But that is the whole problem.  When tuition prices keep growing at this exponential rate, people will have to settle for less value.  Fact is, my 1 year old son, is not going to be going to a school that costs upwards of $65,000 per year for his education when he turns 18.  I'd love for him to experience what I did at Bethel, but if the trends continue, it ain't gonna happen.  He'll have to look for a more affordable option, either public, or a place that can offer significant scholarship money.

esq: Yeah, cheaper in central MN, but private school costs are way up across the board.  And many of those schools are Midwest schools.  Not to mention, smedindy's list includes schools with some huge endowments.  Those schools are able to offer much more in scholarship money than a lot of other private schools can.

I wish it wasn't the case.  But the days of the average, middle class family being able to afford a private college experience may soon be over.  (Note, if you make more than $100k a year, you are not your average middle class family)  Unless you're willing to take out upwards of $100k in school debt for an undergraduate degree, most people will have to start looking elsewhere.  Those are simply the facts.  And if you don't think private schools are worried about this, you haven't talked to anyone in admissions and financial aid at your typical small private college.  They are very aware that the pool of applicants able to afford their schools is drastically narrowing each year.

[DustySJU]

Snooze.  Wake TDT up when there is some actual football chatter.  Or the Little Wiener Doggie gets mouthy.  This $$ discussion is boring.  Snooze.

hmmmmmm......

[D O.C.]

Quote from: TC on Yesterday at 11:55:14 pm
Quote from: WashedUp on Yesterday at 09:29:41 pm
Quote from: Robert Zimmerman on Yesterday at 09:17:40 pm
The new top 25 poll is out and has SJU moving up to the 4th spot.  There has been chatter that Linfield would leapfrog SJU perhaps, but Linfield is ranked 5th for the time being.  I am looking forward to the regional rankings.  Question for the experts:  Will SJU slip in next week's rankings because of the bye week?  With the way the brackets have been made the last couple years (which has been an improvement by the way), it seems that staying in the top 4 could be a big advantage for seeding in the playoffs.

I don't see the bye hurting SJU's ranking.  Linfield is playing a winless Puget Sound team this week and also has a bye next week.  No reason for any rearranging to happen as a result of this week.

Ypsi (and a cast of thousands) beat me to it--Pat Coleman and Keith McMillan don't decide who makes the tournament or what their seeds are.  Which is a good thing for St. John's as no one here wants to open the playoffs on the road.

I'm interested to see what the regional rankings say when they are released this week.  St. John's anywhere from 2nd to 4th would make sense.  (Seeing the SOS numbers--Linfield, Central, and St. John's at 3, 5 and 6, respectively--make me even more interested.)

Skip the next portion if you're bored by Regional Rankings and just want to see me bash Chewey.

*****

In the 2008 West Regional rankings, the top 10 teams were always ranked by record (i.e., undefeated teams ahead of 1-loss teams ahead of 2-loss teams).  This was not always the case in other regions, which might suggest that the committee thinks there's more parity in the West.

Throughout last year's rankings, there were three undefeated teams, Willamette-NWC, Occidental-SCIAC, and Monmouth-MWC, and they were ranked in that order all three weeks.  The next highest-ranked teams were the 1-loss WIAC teams, followed by various 1-loss SCIAC teams, followed by 1-loss Northwestern.  Aside from the first rankings which had Concordia ahead of SJU, St. John's was always the highest-ranked 2-loss team, ahead of 2-loss teams like Wartburg--IIAC, Linfield-NWC and various MIAC teams.

These rankings held when the brackets were released:
1. Willamette
2. Occidental
3. Monmouth
4. UW-Stevens Point (beat UW-W)
5. UW-Whitewater
6. St. John's
7. Wartburg
8. Aurora (unranked 1-loss team from the North Region)

I won't bore you even further with the 2007 regional rankings, but they went like this:
Undefeated:  WIAC > MIAC > IIAC > MWC
The 1-loss teams were a bit murkier but, roughly:  MIAC > IIAC > SCIAC >  NWC is an approximation.
The actual bracket differed from the final rankings when UW-Whitewater was moved to the north as the #1 and 1-loss Bethel beat undefeated St. John's after the final public rankings.  Still, the MIAC had the highest two 1-loss teams in the West Region with the #2 and #4 seeds.

What I'm trying to say is that the NCAA has been quite (inexplicably?) kind to the MIAC in the rankings and eventual seedings the past couple of years. 

My guess at what this week's top 10 will look like:

1. UW-Whitewater (7-0)
2. St. John's (8-0, beat St. Thomas and Bethel*)
3. Central (8-0, beat Coe)
4. Linfield (7-0, beat Occidental)
5. Monmouth (8-0, beat St. Norbert*)
6. St. Thomas (6-1)
7. Coe (6-1)
8. UW-Stevens Point (5-2, 4-1 in region)
9. Occidental (7-1, beat Redlands)
10. Redlands (7-1)

And I think the next two schools under consideration will be Bethel (5-2, 5-1 in region?  I'm not sure if the Wheaton game counts in-region based on the schools' proximity) and St. Norbert (7-1). 

THIS IS NOT HOW I THINK THE SCHOOLS SHOULD BE RANKED, just my guess at what the rankings will be.  We can all laugh at how far off I am when they come out this week.  Can't wait for that!

*****

Quote from: chewey on Yesterday at 05:54:07 pm
The J's have an absolute surplus of great backs and great receivers and the defense is top notch. 

Chewey, you're crazy.  Like, certifiably so. 

The big knock on recent St. John's teams is that they have lacked the elite offensive skill position players that they have had in the past.  I'm not sure what you've seen this year to make you change your mind, but I sure haven't seen it.

The next tackler that Jakob Reding makes miss will be his first.  Against Concorida, Bethel, St. Thomas and St. Olaf (the only defenses remotely close to what they'd see in the playoffs), Reding ran the ball 78 times.  His longest carry from scrimmage?  9 YARDS!  Sounds like a great back to me. 

Kellen Blaser is a great fullback but shouldn't be a team's feature back.  I think Jimmy Loonan should see the field more but he's, ahem, not from Central Minnesota so I'm not sure he'll get a fair shot.  Nick Schneider is out for the year.

I think that the most talented (healthy) running backs on the team are Stevey Johnson and Harry Awe.  They're freshmen, but this is Awe's second year in the program.  I'd like to think that those two with fresh legs in the playoffs could really help a struggling offense.

Vanderheyden's a great big target who is good for a catch a game and the team does absolutely nothing creative to get him the ball.  Sounds like a great receiver.  Overman's a nice tight end/wide receiver/whatever.  Sam Pederson and Andrew Rotschafer remind me of Casey Haugen:  Pederson because they announce his name before the game, he is on the field for the first play, and you don't hear from him for the next 60 minutes, and Rotschafer because it looks like they found him on a Pop Warner field.

Who are the great backs and receivers that I'm forgetting about?  Or are you living in the alternate reality where the Gophers never came calling for Decker, nobody on this board pissed off Flannery's grandpa, and Waldvogel's "scholarship" fell through at USTd?

*****

My Tommie-spawn nephew looks positively badass in his St. John's football jersey and pants.

*****

I agree with the earlier talk that the MIAC might be down this year.  Carleton and Augsburg graduate the best passing attacks in school history before this season (and no, I don't particularly care to reopen the Hvistendahl Debates).  Carleton is back down as a program but pluckier than they were 5+ years ago, while Augsburg really hasn't missed a beat.  St. Olaf has a nice little defense but nowhere near the talent they had a couple years ago.  Concordia followed a nice non-conference win by crapping all over themselves in conference play. 

The one program that was trending upwards and could have done the MIAC some favors with decent non-conference wins was St. Thomas.  In stead, they took the cupcake approach.  Not that I blame them.  Caruso has to know that 9-1 puts them in the playoffs, 10-0 gets them a home game and a legitimate shot at a playoff win.  8-2 does nothing for them.  No reason to risk a loss in non-conference play. 

These playoffs should be telling.  I could see St. Thomas getting in and losing in the first round and St. John's losing at home in the first or, for sure, second round--the SCIAC/MWC patsies that they used to feed top seeds in the first round don't exist anymore.  Bethel's run to Alliance is the last thing the MIAC has accomplished in the playoffs.  That was 2007.  And Bethel.  Yuck.

I guess I'll  have to get on my Lithium again.  I think we have good skill position players and that we simply need a confident QB who can make throws without getting too rattled.  Are any of them Chris Palmer, Blake Elliot, Adam Hrbst, Murray, Loretz, Malmberg, Chris Moore, Kent Crowley? No.  I liken a couple of them more to the Roland Buller (sp?) type of back.  Jakob Reding is a bull.  He is not to avoid people but to run over them and he does that.  The backs have been open in the flat and in the middle but they have been missed by the QB's.  Reding was wide open at least twice over the middle when Versachte (sp?) was QB.  Teams have been keying in on the run all year and the Johnnies have still pounded it and won.  Just think of how good they would look if there was a very serious passing game going on.   St. John's plays the talent and not just kids from Central MN.  Palmer (Fairfax) and Crowley (Fulda) were from southern Minnesota and so was Schnobrich (New Ulm).  Danielson was from Fargo and their (4 year starter) kicker of a few years back was a little kid from Bismarck, ND.  Conzemius was a great running back from Fargo who played in the early 90's.  Now, I would agree that the recruiting competition has gotten a lot stiffer and that SJU has lost some outstanding talent to other schools, accordingly.  But, I still think they have a lot of talent there. 

SJU may need to change its recruiting tactics to get 80% of those top notch kids like it used to.  Maybe doing more than saying, "hey, I am the coach with the most wins in history.  Come play for me if you want to" is necessary to do this.   Maybe kids are turned off by the theatrics and commercializing that goes on at SJU home games.  What Gagliardi and the coaching staff has done there for over half a century speaks for itself, I guess, so what do I know?  There are probably not even many high school "purists" anyway and I am more a cynic rather than a purist anyway.  If I were a parent with a talented high school football player for a son and I wanted him to go somewhere, like SJU, where I'd know he'd continue to play football and actually learn how to read and write well, some of what SJU does would turn me off. 

No retort here.  I just like the way you guys move your pages.

(Ryan Coleman's big bother)

Unless I read into this wrong I must say I was taken back by the fall 2009 Pat, that I almost did not recognize, compared to the PC of a couple years ago. Marathon running? Yard work? Green juice and Acai juice only?

[retagent]

Gee TDT. The past few pages have been chock full of football talk, with precious little input from you. Then you jump in just to complain. It ain't ALL about YOU pal.

[sfury]

Here's where I put in my plug for community colleges for the first two years of school. Recently finished paying off my school loans and that was with only two years of SJU. If it had been four years, I might have fled the country by this point.

A few pages back it was mentioned that maybe some recruits are turned off by the theatrics/promotions at St. John's games. I think we had that same discussion last year - maybe on page 2,456. And my belief is I really, really doubt it.

If St. John's was recruiting 40-year-olds to their football team, then maybe the recruits would be turned off by it. Eighteen-year-olds? I've never heard of a Kentucky basketball recruit being upset that the school's made a fake jersey, fake highlights and fake PA guy announcing him to the starting crowd on a recruiting visit to Rupp Arena. And yeah it's D3, but Orville Redenbacher plugs aren't going to turn off kids compared to the experience of playing in the overall St. John's environment. Doesn't mean they'll go to St. John's, but I don't think they're going somewhere because they'll be getting a purer D3 football experience.

*Waiting for the poster who will inevitably provide an anecdote that he took his nephew/younger brother/son/family friend to a St. John's game and the kid was turned off by having to turn to page 56 and is now going to attend St. Olaf. "And this kid's a solid player at Edina. Now he's not going to St. John's."

[GoldandBlueBU]

Here's where I put in my plug for community colleges for the first two years of school. Recently finished paying off my school loans and that was with only two years of SJU. If it had been four years, I might have fled the country by this point.

A few pages back it was mentioned that maybe some recruits are turned off by the theatrics/promotions at St. John's games. I think we had that same discussion last year - maybe on page 2,456. And my belief is I really, really doubt it.

If St. John's was recruiting 40-year-olds to their football team, then maybe the recruits would be turned off by it. Eighteen-year-olds? I've never heard of a Kentucky basketball recruit being upset that the school's made a fake jersey, fake highlights and fake PA guy announcing him to the starting crowd on a recruiting visit to Rupp Arena. And yeah it's D3, but Orville Redenbacher plugs aren't going to turn off kids compared to the experience of playing in the overall St. John's environment. Doesn't mean they'll go to St. John's, but I don't think they're going somewhere because they'll be getting a purer D3 football experience.

*Waiting for the poster who will inevitably provide an anecdote that he took his nephew/younger brother/son/family friend to a St. John's game and the kid was turned off by having to turn to page 56 and is now going to attend St. Olaf. "And this kid's a solid player at Edina. Now he's not going to St. John's."

I definitely agree w/ that as far as the value of community college's go, however, some private schools don't widely accept the transfer credits from community colleges.  W/ the college credits that I got from the local comm. college while I was in HS, I was able to finish a semester early, but it would've been a year early if it wasn't for BU's unwillingness to accept some of my prior credits. 

I agree w/ Hazzben though, the way things are trending, a 4 year education at the private schools are going to become un-touchable to those who don't a) have parents w/ a large bankroll backing them up or b) don't want to spend their next 10-20 yrs making huge monthly loan payments.

[OzJohnnie]

I agree w/ Hazzben though, the way things are trending, a 4 year education at the private schools are going to become un-touchable to those who don't a) have parents w/ a large bankroll backing them up or b) don't want to spend their next 10-20 yrs making huge monthly loan payments.

A person's most valuable asset is themselves.  A person will take out a 30 year loan to buy a house, but not a 30 year loan to build a money making machine (namely themselves)?

Any economists here that want to discuss the influence of artificial stimulus on the supply/demand balance point?  I won't go any further as I bet Bennie can guess where I'm going with this three year old conversation...

[Knightstalker]

@ smedindy:

The real question for DIII in the next 15 to 20 years is whether or not anyone will actually be able to afford it. The MIAC offers some great options for schools, but they are already cost restrictive. If trends continue with the current rate of tuition hikes (looking at the last 20 years), private schools are going to be almost totally unaffordable unless you're very wealthy. It's not at all out of the realm of possibility that when my son is ready to go to college that MIAC schools will cost $65,000 to $80,000 a year!  There is no possible way I'll be able to afford that, and I think most people would be in the same boat. Unfortunate, but that is the way we are trending.

But that's the way it is nationally. Of the Top 100 schools with the highest tuition, the MIAC members are:

Carleton - 26
Macalester - 63
St. Olaf - 94

Considering that these are the D-1 scholarship schools (non-Ivy) in the Top 100, I think the MIAC is still a great value.

6. George Washington University   $40,392
9. Bucknell University   $39,434
10. Colgate University   $39,275
15. University of Richmond   $38,850
16. Tulane University   $38,664
27. Hobart and William Smith College   $37,820
33. Duke University   $37,630
36. Georgetown University   $37,536
40. Boston College   $37,410
44. Lehigh University   $37,250
46. University of Southern California   $37,096
47. Wake Forest University   $36,975
50. Villanova University   $36,950
57. Northwestern University   $36,756
59. College of the Holy Cross   $36,710
60. Pepperdine University   $36,650
61. Boston University   $36,540
72. Vanderbilt University   $36,100
74. Stanford University   $36,030
76. Lafayette College   $35,904
81. Fairfield University   $35,510
83. Loyola College in Maryland   $35,140
87. Santa Clara University   $34,950
89. University of Miami   $34,834
97. Furman University   $34,048
98. University of San Diego   $34,000
99. Loyola Marymount University   $33,901


http://www.campusgrotto.com/top-100-colleges-by-highest-tuition.html

The NESCAC is rife with expensive schools. Where is the law of diminishing returns? Is an education at Bates really worth that much more than Gustavus Adolphus or Concordia?

Hobart William Smith is DIII with a D-I lacrosse program grandfathered in.

Oz, very interesting view, my father always said there should be only three things you get on credit, your house, your car and your education.