FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Freebird]

Just out of curiosity when was the last time SJU lost to USTD and Bethel in the same season? Ever?

[Redtooth]

Just out of curiosity when was the last time SJU lost to USTD and Bethel in the same season? Ever?

Tweety,

In Football the answer is never.  Prior to 1999, Bethel had never beat SJU.  Prior to Saturday, CST had not won since 1997. 

Very good story about John's comments to the team yesterday making the rounds in cyberspace...something to do with not examining the contents of vomit in the toilet after getting sick, flush it and move ahead.

[sju56321]

No, the closest was 1997 when SJU lost to CST and the week before beat Bethel by only 3 points.

[tmerton]

Very good story about John's comments to the team yesterday making the rounds in cyberspace...something to do with not examining the contents of vomit in the toilet after getting sick, flush it and move ahead.

I heard a former player quote John to that effect on the field right after the game.  Seems like a good move if true - focus on Bethel.

[sfury]

Warning, TMQ-length post coming:

On the recruiting, I have no doubt some Tommie players felt that they were wanted more at St. Thomas or that the school felt right. And I have no doubt there are some St. John's guys who have the same things to say about being recruited by the Tommies. A school feeling "right" isn't unique to athletes. That's one of the main, vague criteria all students use when picking a school. When I was a senior, I visited both St. Thomas and St. John's. After taking both trips, I was set on St. John's. Part of it was the setting but mostly it was about St. John's "feeling right." Whether that was because the weather was nicer the day I went there, my guide was more enthusiastic, a co-ed smiled at me, I don't know. It was all those things and a hundred others. I'm sure athletes have the same experiences during visits. Doesn't mean a school has failed simply because a kid picks another college.

Earlier someone mentioned that perhaps recruiting practices that worked in the 1980s and 1990s can't work today. I don't know. I'm guessing the practices improved somewhat from the 1980s. Check out the yearly records. 1980s? Meh. 1990s and 2000s? Most dominant years in St. John's history. But if they don't make the playoffs this year, the Johnnies will have only won 1 playoff game in four years! Okay. But that still doesn't differ that much from many of the glory years of the current johnnie dynasty, which really started going in 1989.

Between 1994 and 1997, the Johnnies won three playoff games. Yeah, it's two more, but still, twice those years the Johnnies didn't even make the playoffs and one year they went 6-4 (obviously it was much more challenging qualifying for the playoffs back then, that's understood). Think if the D3boards were around then. After that 6-4 campaign, who knows whose head people would have called for. In today's online world - even at cozy D3 - everything's amplified, blown out of proportion, whether it's good things or bad.

The idea that the Tommies now hold an edge in talent, yet somehow the Johnnies still get by on Johnnie Magic, Gagliardi, etc. I do believe in those things too. But you also have to have the horses. And over the last three years - when the Johnnies are supposedly losing all these studs to the Tommies - the teams are as even as two teams can be when they play. Just as the Johnnies and Bethel have been that way for the last four years. Again, that's the same story as there has always been in recent SJU history.

Between 1988 and '94, Hamline went 3-4 against the Johnnies, and in 1996 led in the final minutes. If D3boards had been around then, people would be fretting about Hamline players who felt unwanted by the Johnnies. Over the years, many teams have had good battles against the Johnnies and have occasionally come out on top. Bethel in 1999 and 2000. Did the Johnnies have to overhaul their recruiting system because of those defeats? Concodia in the early 1990s and several years this decade. St. Thomas in the early 1990s. St. Olaf periodically stepping up. Other teams are allowed to be good, St. John's dominance isn't assured or assumed. Maybe some fans think that. But I'm sure the coaches don't, even though fans worry that Johnnie "arrogance" is keeping them from landing player X.

Finally (finally, readers say), there's the worry about what's happened since 2003. What happened to the dominance that led to three straight West Region titles? We've talked about the last four years. But in 2006, they lost by three on the road to Whitewater in the region finals and had a great chance at winning that game. 2005, I still think they could have won but a turnover fest like the one that did them in against Dayton in 1991 killed them. In some ways I think the Johnnies are more talented than they've been other years. I'd argue the running back depth is as good as it's been in a long time.

The difference seems to be that they don't have the dominant receiver, a Palmer, Herbst, even a Sieben or Gearman. I think Lipp could have been that this year before the injury.

But, when talking about 2000-2003, those years should come with a large asterisk, an asterisk that is sort of shaped like a 2. Even as a freshman in 2000, do the Johnnies advance as far as they did without Blake Elliott's big plays? Even in the Bethel loss, he was the man. Then in 2001, is that team winning in the mud in the second round without him? In 2002, are they beating Redlands in the first round without him, or does that season end with a crushing first-round loss at home, like in 2009? And 2003...yeah. In 2002-03, is the passing game what it is if it's Clintsman, Riegelman, etc., starring at wide receiver? The fact is, those years the Johnnies had one of the best players in D3 history. Put him on any of the teams the last five seasons. Think he makes a difference?

The Johnnies the last few years are a lot like every other team they've had, with the exception of those four years from 2000-03. Again, I do agree that a breakout receiver - someone obviously below the Elliott level but similar to some of the other greats - would make a huge difference. But I don't think there's a need to overhaul the recruiting practices or really worry much about them (there's that SJU arrogance!). They're still getting great talent. Besides, hasn't the motto always been centered on ordinary guys?

If they lose Saturday, though? Okay, panic.

[DuffMan]

As much as that loss to UST sucked, I guarantee you that the players left it behind them by Sunday.  Time to focus on the Royals.  As much as I hate that glorified high school stadium, I suppose I will be there

[DuffMan]

I'd argue the running back depth is as good as it's been in a long time.

There is some serious talent at RB this season...more than I can ever remember.

But, when talking about 2000-2003, those years should come with a large asterisk, an asterisk that is sort of shaped like a 2.

I believe it was shaped like an 88 in 2000 

In 2002, are they beating Redlands in the first round without him, or does that season end with a crushing first-round loss at home, like in 2009?

No, a stud d-lineman saved that game with a huge fumble recovery 

Solid analysis, sfury!  I completely agree with a lot of your points.  I think this SJU team would be amazing with a WR who could stretch the field and a Gunderson/Dumonceaux/Hood/Weinandt on the d-line.

[faunch]

As much as that loss to UST sucked, I guarantee you that the players left it behind them by Sunday.  Time to focus on the Royals.  As much as I hate that glorified high school stadium, I suppose I will be there

I believe BU does a video webcast so I think I'll be at home with a 4 pack of Surly!

[AO]

As much as that loss to UST sucked, I guarantee you that the players left it behind them by Sunday.  Time to focus on the Royals.  As much as I hate that glorified high school stadium, I suppose I will be there

I thought the game was in Arden Hills.  You can count me among the people disliking the high school feel of clemens with its track keeping everyone in the stands a healthy distance away from the field.

[WashedUp]

As much as that loss to UST sucked, I guarantee you that the players left it behind them by Sunday.  Time to focus on the Royals.  As much as I hate that glorified high school stadium, I suppose I will be there

What's wrong with playing in high school stadiums?

I thought the game was in Arden Hills.  You can count me among the people disliking the high school feel of clemens with its track keeping everyone in the stands a healthy distance away from the field.

To be fair, 6 of 9 MIAC stadiums have tracks around the field, and last time I checked, none shared a field with the baseball team.

[sju56321]

I have seem a few high school stadiums in Texas that can accommodate 16,000 fans, they are pretty nice.
With regards to the analysis-the big difference I see between the 90's and now is the defense. D always seemed to be good-even that season SJU lost to Bemidji State.

[faunch]

As much as that loss to UST sucked, I guarantee you that the players left it behind them by Sunday.  Time to focus on the Royals.  As much as I hate that glorified high school stadium, I suppose I will be there

I thought the game was in Arden Hills.  You can count me among the people disliking the high school feel of clemens with its track keeping everyone in the stands a healthy distance away from the field.

The seating at Bethel is terrible and the place has very little aesthetic appeal.  I don't think SI will be ranking it as one of its Dream Destinations.

[Pat Coleman]

Warning, TMQ-length post coming:

Length, yes. But far better quality.

[DuffMan]

As much as that loss to UST sucked, I guarantee you that the players left it behind them by Sunday.  Time to focus on the Royals.  As much as I hate that glorified high school stadium, I suppose I will be there

I thought the game was in Arden Hills.  You can count me among the people disliking the high school feel of clemens with its track keeping everyone in the stands a healthy distance away from the field.

#1) No one cares about your opinion.

#2) Bethel's field is nice compared to Northwestern's.

#3) Better a track around the field than soccer lines on the field

[hazzben]

Solid analysis, sfury!  I completely agree with a lot of your points.  I think this SJU team would be amazing with a WR who could stretch the field and a Gunderson/Dumonceaux/Hood/Weinandt on the d-line.

Very valid points. But ultimately just ifs and buts.

If you put a BE, Hvistendahl, Chuck Moore, Kmic, Beiver (sp?), Garcon, etc. on any legit top 10 team they'd be a contender. What does Linfield do against UWW last year with a Brett Elliot at QB? What does Bethel do in 2006 against LAX with Porta not knocked out the week prior against SJU?

What if UST this year had a Johnnie Jesus? (now that's an ironic sentence)

The problem for most of DIII right now is those caliber players have been concentrated largely year in and year out in only two programs. The challenge is for every BU, UST, SJU, Central, Linfield, UMHB, North Central, Wheaton, Wesley, etc. to close the talent gap.