FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hazzben]

That sounds all Minnesota nice, folksy, and makes for good news stories, but the studs who drove the great SJU teams of the last 20 years and before that weren't exactly "ordinary" bubbas.

I disagree.  Sure, there were a few incredible athletes (Elliot, perhaps  ), but the bulk of the teams were made up of ordinary guys--good athletes, but not DI rejects.  Tom Linneman threw a nice ball and had charisma pouring out his ears, but if you ever saw the guy in the locker room, "athlete" is not the word that would come to mind (once, after a playoff game, he got drawn for a drug test, and I heard him say, "if they want proof that I'm not on steroids, I'll just lift up my shirt).  Much of John's success has been built on that principle of ordinary guys doing ordinary things extraordinarily well.

I'm absolutely with Chubbs on this one. In the last 15 years the coaches at SJU are largely intact. So why are they losing as opposed to winning...their players have gotten a lot more ordinary. Their lineman are soft, where in the past they've athletic and physical. Their skill position players are nothing special, where in the past they had the speed, strength, quickness and instincts as good or better than any team in the conference.

Sure, most good to great DIII players are never going to play in the NFL and most never got any DI looks (although Mr. Linneman had quite a few scholarship offers if I'm not mistaken). But that hardly makes them ordinary. When SJU has had great teams, they've had great players doing 'ordinary' things extraordinarily well. Were they NFL or DI great. Almost always not. But SJU wasn't trying to beat DI or DII teams. Were they DIII great. Absolutely they were.

You can certainly take great talent, coach them poorly in fundamentals and scheme, call a bad game and lose on a consistent basis (UST under their former HC anyone  ). But you can't take ordinary players and consistently win conference titles or make deep playoff runs. Main reason, you will run into other teams who are coached well, disciplined and talented. All the other variables being equal, talent wins. A well coached, 'ordinary' team can definitely beat a poorly coached team of studs. But unless they play in a weak conference, they can't go undefeated.

Now, I will say this line may explain why the down years are so few and far between for SJU. In a given stretch, when you don't have the normal horses, this philosophy can certainly make a team with 3-7 or 4-6 talent, a 6-4 or even 7-3 team by seasons end. Bottom line, the reason SJU is struggling is because the rest of the league (by and large) has closed the talent gap and some of the teams have closed the coaching gap.

[DuffMan]

I'll take it a step futher and suggest that SJU's recent struggles have a large part to do with not having any extraordinary guys on the D-Line. When SJU is really good, they have a lights out D-line(note: most of the names listed above were d-lineman). It seemed like they always had 1 or 2 all-americans on the d-line, with some freshman or sophmore that ended up being a 1st team all-american a year or two later. While most of them weren't your typical d-lineman, they were all extemely athletic and quick...which created huge matchup problems for DIII O-lineman.

Having played with many of the d-linemen you mentioned (I graduated a year ahead of Hood and Wienandt and played between the two my junior and senior year), I agree that they were great d-linemen, but I think what helped make them great was coaching.  Both of those guys came into SJU as linebackers.  The staff quickly realized that they could make great d-linemen.  And while they did some fantastic things at SJU, I have my doubts if they would have been stars at other schools, simply because I can't imagine too many coaches recognizing and exploiting their talents like the coaches at SJU did.

[hazzben]

I would have to agree that when SJU has been good, they've had more than just a couple "extraordinary" guys on the team.

I wouldn't call playmakers ordinary. Playmakers make all the difference in big games....doesn't that make them "extraordinary"? Elliot, Hood, Dumonceaux, Good, Weinandt, Gearman, McCambridge, Steffensmeier, McNamara, Keating, Linnemann, & Clintsman just to name a few of the playmakers that SJU has had over the past 10 years. I'd say these extraordinary guys made a pretty big difference for SJU.

I'll take it a step futher and suggest that SJU's recent struggles have a large part to do with not having any extraordinary guys on the D-Line. When SJU is really good, they have a lights out D-line(note: most of the names listed above were d-lineman). It seemed like they always had 1 or 2 all-americans on the d-line, with some freshman or sophmore that ended up being a 1st team all-american a year or two later. While most of them weren't your typical d-lineman, they were all extemely athletic and quick...which created huge matchup problems for DIII O-lineman.

And that list is just a sampling. Their were others as well. You could definitely add in LaBore, Moore, Novak, Ramler, et al to the list.

And yes, the position where they've seen the biggest down grade is most certainly their Dline. Although their Oline isn't much to write home about now either. But back in the day, their great D's were built around their outstanding line play. And thank you for not putting Gunderson on that list. SJU's had some great ones, but he was more hype than substance. He might have been 'an extraordinarily hyped guy doing ordinary things in a slightly above ordinary way.' 

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

When SJU has had its best teams, there was a mix of extraordinary guys in with the ordinary guys, with all of them doing the ordinary things (ie, executing) extraordinarily well. Now they seem to be lacking some of the extraordinary guys and definitely dont execute as flawlessly as in the past.

[DuffMan]

And thank you for not putting Gunderson on that list.

I think he peaked early.  He was a beast as a sophomore, but fizzled.  Also, you have to realize that there wasn't much else on the d-line at that point, so he drew most of the attention.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

And thank you for not putting Gunderson on that list.

I think he peaked early.  He was a beast as a sophomore, but fizzled.  Also, you have to realize that there wasn't much else on the d-line at that point, so he drew most of the attention.

didnt he have some injury issues as well?

[RoyalBU]

I'll take it a step futher and suggest that SJU's recent struggles have a large part to do with not having any extraordinary guys on the D-Line. When SJU is really good, they have a lights out D-line(note: most of the names listed above were d-lineman). It seemed like they always had 1 or 2 all-americans on the d-line, with some freshman or sophmore that ended up being a 1st team all-american a year or two later. While most of them weren't your typical d-lineman, they were all extemely athletic and quick...which created huge matchup problems for DIII O-lineman.

Having played with many of the d-linemen you mentioned (I graduated a year ahead of Hood and Wienandt and played between the two my junior and senior year), I agree that they were great d-linemen, but I think what helped make them great was coaching.  Both of those guys came into SJU as linebackers.  The staff quickly realized that they could make great d-linemen.  And while they did some fantastic things at SJU, I have my doubts if they would have been stars at other schools, simply because I can't imagine too many coaches recognizing and exploiting their talents like the coaches at SJU did.

I totally agree, but that's part of what a coaches job is. You have to put guys in the right spot that fit your system. It always amazed me how Bethel & SJU(until the past few years) always have undersized d-lines, but are nearly impossible to run against. Most of BU's d-lineman are linebackers converted to the d-line as well. Zach Danielson, 2006 Stam award winner, was a highly touted FB/LB recruit from Florida. He ended up being a great defensive end in BU's 3 man front. He actually would have been phenominal in SJU's defensive scheme as well. You could say the same for BU's past 2 QB's. They maybe would have had success at Moorhead(especially Wetzell), but would have likely struggled in another "system" at other MIAC schools. While it's a great job of BU's coaches to adjust the system to make them successful, they were still extraordinary players.

You can look at SJU, BU, and UST's best teams of the past 10-12 years; and it's made up of mostly ordinary players with 3 or 4 extraordinary guys on both sides of the ball. While middle of the pack teams are mostly ordinary without as many playmakers or extraordinary players.

[RoyalBU]

When SJU has had its best teams, there was a mix of extraordinary guys in with the ordinary guys, with all of them doing the ordinary things (ie, executing) extraordinarily well. Now they seem to be lacking some of the extraordinary guys and definitely dont execute as flawlessly as in the past.

Right on. I should have read your post before posting.

[hazzben]

And thank you for not putting Gunderson on that list.

I think he peaked early.  He was a beast as a sophomore, but fizzled.  Also, you have to realize that there wasn't much else on the d-line at that point, so he drew most of the attention.

I agree with that. I think the cast around him as a soph made him look the beast though. At Bethel, we had to scheme for guys like Hood, Dumonceaux and Weinandt. To my knowledge, we never did that for Gunderson.

But as someone else mentioned, he did get injured, so that could have played a part. I just never saw him in the same category as the other guys.

[Chubbs]

Two big games this weekend, not much in the way of talk about them...IMO the biggest one is Bethel @ Augsburg. I took in the Auggie-Hamline game and was very impressed with Mr Scott, but it was a question of was he as good as he looked or was Ham's defense as bad as he made them look.  He & the Auggies get a challenging test when they try to move the ball against The Blue Wall. The game has the potential to be a high scoring affair and should be well worth the trip over to Riverside Ave.

The second intriguing battle is St Olaf @ SJU. A loss by Olaf pretty much eliminates them from title contention, while a loss for the Johnnies could really revv up the "the sky is falling" commentaries/concerns. Olaf has a recent history of pretty decent success at Collegeville.  How SJU's defense copes with Dobson is the key to the game....if they limit his effectiveness, they can get off the schneid....if not, the specter of a 4-4 or even 3-5 MIAC season grows larger.

I think this matchup with Augsburg is intriguing. It'll be a good test for the defense, who haven't been pushed since week 1 against Wartburg.

Top to bottom, I don't think Augsburg has the horses. That said, an athletic, mobile quarterback is always a wildcard. The last thing you want to do is to get into a shootout. It sounds like the Frosh QB is legit and a game changer. If you've got good speed on D, which Bethel does, then it really comes down to playing disciplined, smart football. An athletic QB will obvious give nightmares to a slow D. But if you're not disciplined with your gaps and containment you are constantly at risk for the big play once things break down.

Should be a good test for Bethel.

After BU's 42-7 win over Auggie last year, I have a hard time believing that Bethel has declined enough (I actually believe they're improved on both sides of the ball) or that Auggie is improved enough in order to make it a terribly close game.

I hope you're right. Bethel is playing well right now. If this game is close or Augsburg wins it will say more about how far they've come. That said, this will be a stiff test for a freshman QB who's shown he can play, but he hasn't seen an elite D or team yet. This will be the biggest game of his brief career.

The one wildcard is playing at Augsburg. It's just such a weird environment. It can make for a strange atmosphere and definitely affects substitutions on both sides of the ball.

I hope the Auggies can keep that big Bethel Defense on the field and tire them out chasing Mr. Scott and Co.. This will keep the Bethel offense off the field. If Augsburg can do this they have a chance to keep it close and maybe win. As far as last years Auggies; this team has improved on defense and show a different look on offense. As far as the environment being weird; that place will get really "weird" if Augsburg keeps winning. I am expecting a good effort from the Auggies.

So that makes two wild cards; 1) Athletic, Mobile QB and  2) Weird Environment (I won't argue; it is different but it is home)

This has "trap game" written all over it; makes me nervous.

OA, has Auggie upgraded to Field Turf yet or are they still playing on that green steel wool with the seams at every yard line?  Sorry if that's old news; I've been away for quite a while.  Played on the old field twice, and that was plenty.

[DuffMan]

You can look at SJU, BU, and UST's best teams of the past 10-12 years; and it's made up of mostly ordinary players with 3 or 4 extraordinary guys on both sides of the ball. While middle of the pack teams are mostly ordinary without as many playmakers or extraordinary players.

That, I will agree with, except for Roney-era UST.  They always had extraordinary guys, just a bonehead coaching staff that didn't know how to utilize them! 

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

You can look at SJU, BU, and UST's best teams of the past 10-12 years; and it's made up of mostly ordinary players with 3 or 4 extraordinary guys on both sides of the ball. While middle of the pack teams are mostly ordinary without as many playmakers or extraordinary players.

That, I will agree with, except for Roney-era UST.  They always had extraordinary guys, just a bonehead coaching staff that didn't know how to utilize them! 

Sooooo true!   

[USTBench]

You can look at SJU, BU, and UST's best teams of the past 10-12 years; and it's made up of mostly ordinary players with 3 or 4 extraordinary guys on both sides of the ball. While middle of the pack teams are mostly ordinary without as many playmakers or extraordinary players.

That, I will agree with, except for Roney-era UST.  They always had extraordinary guys, just a bonehead coaching staff that didn't know how to utilize them! 

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh

[Pat Coleman]

OA, has Auggie upgraded to Field Turf yet or are they still playing on that green steel wool with the seams at every yard line?  Sorry if that's old news; I've been away for quite a while.  Played on the old field twice, and that was plenty.

Nobody in Division III plays on the old-style rug anymore.

[DuffMan]

OA, has Auggie upgraded to Field Turf yet or are they still playing on that green steel wool with the seams at every yard line?  Sorry if that's old news; I've been away for quite a while.  Played on the old field twice, and that was plenty.

That stuff was bad, but my junior year we played at the Fargodome twice, and that was worse!  It was like playing on a giant, wire-bristle brush.