FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[USTBench]

I go with stooges.

Polls aren't about logic, they're about shady backroom dealings with wealthy alums named T. Boone. Lots of cigars, bolo neckties, white Cadillacs with longhorns on the front, scotch being swilled, leather office furniture, envelopes with large amounts of cash.

Here's the only way any of these teams make it on the poll at all: University presidents kowtow to PC's underlings for months just to get a meeting. Then they're lead to D3football.com headquarters at the top of the Chrysler Building in NYC, which is followed by a lot genuflecting and then handing him $250,000 in a gym bag. That'll get you some votes, but not quite in the Top 25.

[Texas Ole]

Woohoo!  We have a debate about the rankings after the first week of the season.  (sarcasm)  This is Division 3 football, and the rankings don't matter as much.  We have this thing called a playoff which means that eventually it will be settled on the field.  The point is to play well enough to make it to the playoffs.  As a St. Olaf fan I am sure there are a few SJU fans that might like to remind me how the 2001 season ended for them after the Oles beat them to send them to 0-2.  I already know that answer.  Finally last I checked championships were not won the second week of season.  If this was NCAA FBS then I would say it may matter a little this early.

Also an important note is that the US News & World Report college rankings just came out.  I didn't see many real surprises in terms of where the MIAC teams ranked.  It was interesting to see a few schools moving from the Liberal Arts Colleges to the Regional University rankings.  The real surprise for me was seeing St. Thomas ranked as a National University.  I know many people at UST had talked about this move for some time.  I know that UST is growing quite rapidly.  Have there been discussions at UST to move up to Division 2?  Their undergraduate enrollment is more than double any other MIAC school.  There would be a few sports that would be tough to move due to the NCAA such as hockey which does not have D2 hockey so that sport may have to move to the D1 level.  I would imagine if this move is made certain rivalries would be maintained particularly between SJU and UST out of tradition.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I go with stooges.

Polls aren't about logic, they're about shady backroom dealings with wealthy alums named T. Boone. Lots of cigars, bolo neckties, white Cadillacs with longhorns on the front, scotch being swilled, leather office furniture, envelopes with large amounts of cash.

Here's the only way any of these teams make it on the poll at all: University presidents kowtow to PC's underlings for months just to get a meeting. Then they're lead to D3football.com headquarters at the top of the Chrysler Building in NYC, which is followed by a lot genuflecting and then handing him $250,000 in a gym bag. That'll get you some votes, but not quite in the Top 25.

You're confusing Pat with the BCS!

[sfury]

To be fair to Ron, there's discussion over at the North board as well about the polls and RD (hey, reminds me of Ron Davis! *throws something*) you might find more eager participants in the ranking chat there.

[skunks_sidekick]

One last kick at the dead horse....

Here is how many see D3: UMU won the championship last year and was the preseason #1.....ho hum, I'll check back in come Stagg bowl time to see Vince win for the first time.

What the 25 D3 experts voting have said this weekend is.....wait, don't go anywhere, this thing is wide open.  Of the 15 experts that don't have UMU at #1....a handful of them have UMU at #3 or lower (I think that is the only way the math works for UMU and UST to be 1 point away).  #1 for the last 8 yrs has been UMU or WW....and now there are a few guys saying that the power schools aren't even in the top #3 today.  Yeah say what you will about polls not meaning anything, but that high level take away is a pretty clear message. 

The chase is wide open and there is clearly not a favorite.  UST, Linfield and UMHB are by no means locks and an injury away from having their seasons cut short.  With the chase wide open, all the more reason to follow UW Plateville and consider them a legitimate contender....or whoever else in the top ~10 that gets hot. 

If you look at the polls, see UMU at the top, say of course and yawn.....well I think you are missing the story.

Like.

Thx.  The funny thing is I think I picked up 5 or so negative karma points today.  The only questionable thing I did was call someone out for being hypocritical/passive aggressive.....and then received a handful of more passive aggressive karma dings.  Can't make it up.

Dude........here's how I voted in the poll. 

TOMMIES SUCK!  That's all I got....... 

In reality, there are probably far fewer Mount folks who would  argue that Mount should be #1.  However, I am one of those folks that have always subscribed to the mantra that you are #1 until someone beats you.  I felt that way the four years that UWW was the national champ as well.  They were my #1 until someone beat them.

[USTBench]

Woohoo!  We have a debate about the rankings after the first week of the season.  (sarcasm)  This is Division 3 football, and the rankings don't matter as much.  We have this thing called a playoff which means that eventually it will be settled on the field.  The point is to play well enough to make it to the playoffs.  As a St. Olaf fan I am sure there are a few SJU fans that might like to remind me how the 2001 season ended for them after the Oles beat them to send them to 0-2.  I already know that answer.  Finally last I checked championships were not won the second week of season.  If this was NCAA FBS then I would say it may matter a little this early.

Also an important note is that the US News & World Report college rankings just came out.  I didn't see many real surprises in terms of where the MIAC teams ranked.  It was interesting to see a few schools moving from the Liberal Arts Colleges to the Regional University rankings.  The real surprise for me was seeing St. Thomas ranked as a National University.  I know many people at UST had talked about this move for some time.  I know that UST is growing quite rapidly.  Have there been discussions at UST to move up to Division 2?  Their undergraduate enrollment is more than double any other MIAC school.  There would be a few sports that would be tough to move due to the NCAA such as hockey which does not have D2 hockey so that sport may have to move to the D1 level. I would imagine if this move is made certain rivalries would be maintained particularly between SJU and UST out of tradition.

Ugggggh! Why D2? Why would a school EVER go D2? Why is this always suggested? First of all enrollment and division affiliation are not linked, it's not high school.

D2 has the football atmosphere of an abandoned tire plant with the logistical problems of D1. It makes no sense for a team to go D2 from D3 unless there is zero emphasis on academics (I'm looking at you McMurry).

IF, if, if, if UST is to jump up a level someday, the only logical choice would be to do something like Valpo, Drake, Butler did: FCS non-scholarship in football (Pioneer League) and make basketball their flagship sport. They have a nice facility, but it's not a D1 arena. Or, focus on hockey and try to get into the revamped WCHA (again, no hockey arena of their own, and certainly not a D1 arena). Otherwise it makes no sense.

I challenge anyone to name a halfway decent academic school participating in D2 athletics at this moment. I don't know a good analogy or a comparable D3 school in terms of being a "national university," maybe Case Western or Johns Hopkins in terms of undergrad enrollment (I know their academics are ranked higher), but D2 goes against the ethos of UST is trying to accomplish.

[ron doney]

RD, you're a walking, typing logical inconsistency. Up until your last post I was still harbouring a suspicion that you were trolling us and not serious. But you are serious. So, here's what gives:

1. Your argument is self-defeating.  If the poll is flawed or not reflective if reality for any reason then there is no validity to how it rates UST, much less MUC.

I didn't say anything about the poll being flawed or not reflective of reality.  It is entirely accurate.....especially if you read across from the # ranking and look at how the votes shook out.  Which paints a picture and tells what I think is reflective of reality......go back and re-read and come back to me if it still isn't clear.

2. Your argument insults the poll voters. Are they stooges that overrate MUC or are they professionals in the industry with a better grip on teams than any of us clowns here?  You also went pretty close to gratuitously insulting the integrity of our patron, PC, who has built all this D3 infrastructure with the help of his dedicated partners and gives it to us for nothing.

I don't see anything that insults them.....again, I said that they get it - UMU only one point ahead is not grossly overated and the top is tight now, wide open for the next champ.  You all are the ones that don't get it frankly....saying the champ is one until they get beat.  That statement flies in the face of the poll voters - 15 of which voted for a #1 other than UMU. 

Pats a professional and I highly doubt I this is even close to being offensive.....its all civil, articulate and nuanced discussion.  The polls are created to stir discussion....and with that comes controversial discussion.  It is more insulting to tell Pat and the poll voters that polls don't mean anything......thanks for taking time out of your week to do all that poll voting and work, but b/c polls mean nothing I don't even really read them or look at them and just dismiss them whenever anybody says anything about them <----telling someone their hard work is irrelevant is insulting.

Please highlight my exact words to show me where I have been insulting.  Otherwise I'm at a loss.

3. Your argument smacks of desperation for external validation. UST earns their rewards regardless of what the poll says. I hope the players are more self actualising than you appear to be.

I'm talking about how close things are at the top.....and that same argument holds whether UST was number one this week or not.  I wouldn't take any more validation from being at the first rank by one than I do being in the second rand by one......all too close. Would I be proud or validated if UST had all the first place votes by week 5....yeah, that would be cool.

Your comment here is in the same camp of the polls don't matter folk.....they use the same argument to dismiss the polls - people just need to be validated by something, so they have the polls.  And by association this comment IMO is insulting to the pull voters.

So your karma pings?  Probably because you are utterly ignorant of how your posts appear to anyone not wearing the same set of blinders you are. And make it -1 more.  I was just pushed over the edge.

Honestly, you sound like a PC groupie.  Groupies don't know the real story and tend to get too emotional about the things they love.  I couldn't have more respect for d3.com Pat or Keith, IMO Pat is the Tom Brokaw of D3.  But if I accidentally insult him in any way, I don't need to necessarily apologize.  If I felt that way and tip toed around everything on d3.com.....then that would be an insult to Pat and Keith and others.  Because it would be thinking of d3.com as a couple of guys who casually have a blog about D3, a small little outfit I need to baby....... but these guys are much bigger and better than that.  They have built a high profile brand and an timeless institution.  My unfiltered comments come with the territory.  My impression is that unlike you, Pat doesn't get too emotional or insulted and understands where he sits.  He tweeted something of the sort when the Top 25 or All American list came out......someone said that the comments were insulting, and he replied with something like, not really - we've seen much worse.

Also, to my point, he tweeted this in July when the polls came out:
7/18/13 @d3football: The preseason http://D3football.com  Top 25! Will this year be as wide open as pollsters think? http://www.d3football.com/top25/2013/preseason ... #d3fb

[ron doney]

To be fair to Ron, there's discussion over at the North board as well about the polls and RD (hey, reminds me of Ron Davis! *throws something*) you might find more eager participants in the ranking chat there.

OK Thx.

[Mr. Ypsi]

To be fair to Ron, there's discussion over at the North board as well about the polls and RD (hey, reminds me of Ron Davis! *throws something*) you might find more eager participants in the ranking chat there.

That discussion is specifically about the North region rankings (usually ), but there is a thread already set up in 'General Football' for discussing the national poll.  It hasn't yet been posted on this season, so is currently the first topic on page two of general football, but it was quite active in past years.  There is also the National Fan Poll thread on page one of general football (I'm one of the voters both there and for the North region poll); we welcome discussion of poll placement and WHY.

Ron, I'd suggest you move your discussion (if you wish to continue) to one of those pages - when you get 'dinged' by Oz, you know you've worn out your welcome here!

[ron doney]

Woohoo!  We have a debate about the rankings after the first week of the season.  (sarcasm)  This is Division 3 football, and the rankings don't matter as much.  We have this thing called a playoff which means that eventually it will be settled on the field.  The point is to play well enough to make it to the playoffs.  As a St. Olaf fan I am sure there are a few SJU fans that might like to remind me how the 2001 season ended for them after the Oles beat them to send them to 0-2.  I already know that answer.  Finally last I checked championships were not won the second week of season.  If this was NCAA FBS then I would say it may matter a little this early.

Also an important note is that the US News & World Report college rankings just came out.  I didn't see many real surprises in terms of where the MIAC teams ranked.  It was interesting to see a few schools moving from the Liberal Arts Colleges to the Regional University rankings.  The real surprise for me was seeing St. Thomas ranked as a National University.  I know many people at UST had talked about this move for some time.  I know that UST is growing quite rapidly.  Have there been discussions at UST to move up to Division 2?  Their undergraduate enrollment is more than double any other MIAC school.  There would be a few sports that would be tough to move due to the NCAA such as hockey which does not have D2 hockey so that sport may have to move to the D1 level. I would imagine if this move is made certain rivalries would be maintained particularly between SJU and UST out of tradition.

Ugggggh! Why D2? Why would a school EVER go D2? Why is this always suggested? First of all enrollment and division affiliation are not linked, it's not high school.

D2 has the football atmosphere of an abandoned tire plant with the logistical problems of D1. It makes no sense for a team to go D2 from D3 unless there is zero emphasis on academics (I'm looking at you McMurry).

IF, if, if, if UST is to jump up a level someday, the only logical choice would be to do something like Valpo, Drake, Butler did: FCS non-scholarship in football (Pioneer League) and make basketball their flagship sport. They have a nice facility, but it's not a D1 arena. Or, focus on hockey and try to get into the revamped WCHA (again, no hockey arena of their own, and certainly not a D1 arena). Otherwise it makes no sense.

I challenge anyone to name a halfway decent academic school participating in D2 athletics at this moment. I don't know a good analogy or a comparable D3 school in terms of being a "national university," maybe Case Western or Johns Hopkins in terms of undergrad enrollment (I know their academics are ranked higher), but D2 goes against the ethos of UST is trying to accomplish.

I think the Trustees were excited when Deinhart came back to UST a decade ago or so.  There was finally someone at the helm who was forward thinking and had relevant experience at the national level.  The trustees didn't want to stop at coed, they wanted to build something bigger.  They wanted to gain a national presence like Mac and Carleton have enjoyed - east coast boarding school kids don't go to UST, but they have been going to Mac and Carleton for some time.  One of USTs strengths is that its Catholic.  Catholic schools enjoy a nice national presence.  But at a high level it boils down to the Jesuit schools and Notre Dame.  The trustees saw this and said there is room for another one.  So yeah, a little Notre Dame is emerging.  And its a dream that others think is real and achievable, enough that the Anderson's - who have no ties to UST - recognized it and supported it in a real way.  Same with Schulze.  That's what is going on institutionally.....the sports are TBD.  Bench's take is very accurate and well said.  It also takes more $. 

As an alum, its nice to know the school is continually investing in my degree.  It arguably means more today than it did 10 years ago, 20 years ago.  Nice to know a recruiter in NYC who googles UST now sees it on the national list. 

[Texas Ole]

Woohoo!  We have a debate about the rankings after the first week of the season.  (sarcasm)  This is Division 3 football, and the rankings don't matter as much.  We have this thing called a playoff which means that eventually it will be settled on the field.  The point is to play well enough to make it to the playoffs.  As a St. Olaf fan I am sure there are a few SJU fans that might like to remind me how the 2001 season ended for them after the Oles beat them to send them to 0-2.  I already know that answer.  Finally last I checked championships were not won the second week of season.  If this was NCAA FBS then I would say it may matter a little this early.

Also an important note is that the US News & World Report college rankings just came out.  I didn't see many real surprises in terms of where the MIAC teams ranked.  It was interesting to see a few schools moving from the Liberal Arts Colleges to the Regional University rankings.  The real surprise for me was seeing St. Thomas ranked as a National University.  I know many people at UST had talked about this move for some time.  I know that UST is growing quite rapidly.  Have there been discussions at UST to move up to Division 2?  Their undergraduate enrollment is more than double any other MIAC school.  There would be a few sports that would be tough to move due to the NCAA such as hockey which does not have D2 hockey so that sport may have to move to the D1 level. I would imagine if this move is made certain rivalries would be maintained particularly between SJU and UST out of tradition.

Ugggggh! Why D2? Why would a school EVER go D2? Why is this always suggested? First of all enrollment and division affiliation are not linked, it's not high school.

D2 has the football atmosphere of an abandoned tire plant with the logistical problems of D1. It makes no sense for a team to go D2 from D3 unless there is zero emphasis on academics (I'm looking at you McMurry).

IF, if, if, if UST is to jump up a level someday, the only logical choice would be to do something like Valpo, Drake, Butler did: FCS non-scholarship in football (Pioneer League) and make basketball their flagship sport. They have a nice facility, but it's not a D1 arena. Or, focus on hockey and try to get into the revamped WCHA (again, no hockey arena of their own, and certainly not a D1 arena). Otherwise it makes no sense.

I challenge anyone to name a halfway decent academic school participating in D2 athletics at this moment. I don't know a good analogy or a comparable D3 school in terms of being a "national university," maybe Case Western or Johns Hopkins in terms of undergrad enrollment (I know their academics are ranked higher), but D2 goes against the ethos of UST is trying to accomplish.

I think the Trustees were excited when Deinhart came back to UST a decade ago or so.  There was finally someone at the helm who was forward thinking and had relevant experience at the national level.  The trustees didn't want to stop at coed, they wanted to build something bigger.  They wanted to gain a national presence like Mac and Carleton have enjoyed - east coast boarding school kids don't go to UST, but they have been going to Mac and Carleton for some time.  One of USTs strengths is that its Catholic.  Catholic schools enjoy a nice national presence.  But at a high level it boils down to the Jesuit schools and Notre Dame.  The trustees saw this and said there is room for another one.  So yeah, a little Notre Dame is emerging.  And its a dream that others think is real and achievable, enough that the Anderson's - who have no ties to UST - recognized it and supported it in a real way.  Same with Schulze.  That's what is going on institutionally.....the sports are TBD.  Bench's take is very accurate and well said.  It also takes more $. 

As an alum, its nice to know the school is continually investing in my degree.  It arguably means more today than it did 10 years ago, 20 years ago.  Nice to know a recruiter in NYC who googles UST now sees it on the national list. 

It was merely a question which appears to have been answered.  I was thinking of the Northern Sun for UST if they were to jump.  Travel costs would be somewhat similar.  My thought was for increased exposure, but you do make some solid points.  I get the attendance thing for NCAA.  After all Tulsa competes in FBS with an enrollment similar to St. Olaf.  Thanks for the answer.  Rice University over the years has talked about dropping to D3 with their enrollment and focus on athletics.  Thank you for the answer.

[USTBench]

Woohoo!  We have a debate about the rankings after the first week of the season.  (sarcasm)  This is Division 3 football, and the rankings don't matter as much.  We have this thing called a playoff which means that eventually it will be settled on the field.  The point is to play well enough to make it to the playoffs.  As a St. Olaf fan I am sure there are a few SJU fans that might like to remind me how the 2001 season ended for them after the Oles beat them to send them to 0-2.  I already know that answer.  Finally last I checked championships were not won the second week of season.  If this was NCAA FBS then I would say it may matter a little this early.

Also an important note is that the US News & World Report college rankings just came out.  I didn't see many real surprises in terms of where the MIAC teams ranked.  It was interesting to see a few schools moving from the Liberal Arts Colleges to the Regional University rankings.  The real surprise for me was seeing St. Thomas ranked as a National University.  I know many people at UST had talked about this move for some time.  I know that UST is growing quite rapidly.  Have there been discussions at UST to move up to Division 2?  Their undergraduate enrollment is more than double any other MIAC school.  There would be a few sports that would be tough to move due to the NCAA such as hockey which does not have D2 hockey so that sport may have to move to the D1 level. I would imagine if this move is made certain rivalries would be maintained particularly between SJU and UST out of tradition.

Ugggggh! Why D2? Why would a school EVER go D2? Why is this always suggested? First of all enrollment and division affiliation are not linked, it's not high school.

D2 has the football atmosphere of an abandoned tire plant with the logistical problems of D1. It makes no sense for a team to go D2 from D3 unless there is zero emphasis on academics (I'm looking at you McMurry).

IF, if, if, if UST is to jump up a level someday, the only logical choice would be to do something like Valpo, Drake, Butler did: FCS non-scholarship in football (Pioneer League) and make basketball their flagship sport. They have a nice facility, but it's not a D1 arena. Or, focus on hockey and try to get into the revamped WCHA (again, no hockey arena of their own, and certainly not a D1 arena). Otherwise it makes no sense.

I challenge anyone to name a halfway decent academic school participating in D2 athletics at this moment. I don't know a good analogy or a comparable D3 school in terms of being a "national university," maybe Case Western or Johns Hopkins in terms of undergrad enrollment (I know their academics are ranked higher), but D2 goes against the ethos of UST is trying to accomplish.

I think the Trustees were excited when Deinhart came back to UST a decade ago or so.  There was finally someone at the helm who was forward thinking and had relevant experience at the national level.  The trustees didn't want to stop at coed, they wanted to build something bigger.  They wanted to gain a national presence like Mac and Carleton have enjoyed - east coast boarding school kids don't go to UST, but they have been going to Mac and Carleton for some time.  One of USTs strengths is that its Catholic.  Catholic schools enjoy a nice national presence.  But at a high level it boils down to the Jesuit schools and Notre Dame.  The trustees saw this and said there is room for another one.  So yeah, a little Notre Dame is emerging.  And its a dream that others think is real and achievable, enough that the Anderson's - who have no ties to UST - recognized it and supported it in a real way.  Same with Schulze.  That's what is going on institutionally.....the sports are TBD.  Bench's take is very accurate and well said.  It also takes more $. 

As an alum, its nice to know the school is continually investing in my degree.  It arguably means more today than it did 10 years ago, 20 years ago.  Nice to know a recruiter in NYC who googles UST now sees it on the national list. 

It was merely a question which appears to have been answered.  I was thinking of the Northern Sun for UST if they were to jump.  Travel costs would be somewhat similar.  My thought was for increased exposure, but you do make some solid points.  I get the attendance thing for NCAA.  After all Tulsa competes in FBS with an enrollment similar to St. Olaf.  Thanks for the answer.  Rice University over the years has talked about dropping to D3 with their enrollment and focus on athletics.  Thank you for the answer.

When UND and USD jumped (5 years after NDSU and SDSU jumped) to D1 from D2 it was because they saw the writing on the wall (D2 football was plummeting in terms of relevance, competiveness and atmosphere). Joining the NSIC would do nothing to raise UST's profile athletically and would hurt it academically. Additionally, when the conference includes the likes of UM-Crookston and Southwest Minnesota State it's hard to justify to me why that would be better than playing SJU and Bethel. In fact, the NSIC often times play much smaller crowds than a good MIAC game.

Interesting about Rice. I went to a Rice/East Carolina game in Houston 2 years ago. 70,000 seat stadium, about 5,000 people in attendance. It just seemed awkward. Centenary dropped from D1 to D3 a few years back and it seemed like the right move at the time.

[Pat Coleman]

You also went pretty close to gratuitously insulting the integrity of our patron, PC, who has built all this D3 infrastructure with the help of his dedicated partners and gives it to us for nothing.

And we know NO Johnnies fan would EVER do that.

[Pat Coleman]

A couple things I think are worth keeping in mind when discussing St. Thomas and Division II.

1. They just built a brand-new on-campus arena that is not really sized for Division II. There isn't a facility minimum standard for seating at the D-II level but regardless, that isn't in keeping with other D-II gyms/arenas.

2. Really have to keep hockey in mind. There is no Division II hockey and all of the D-II schools with hockey either play up a level (at significant expense) or sit in no-man's land in Division II hockey like a handful of schools in New England do, with no national championship to shoot for.

The hockey thing applies to a bunch of the WIAC schools as well. Plus that state's legislature would have to appropriate the funds and I don't think that's something they're all that keen on doing in this political climate.

[OzJohnnie]

You also went pretty close to gratuitously insulting the integrity of our patron, PC, who has built all this D3 infrastructure with the help of his dedicated partners and gives it to us for nothing.

And we know NO Johnnies fan would EVER do that.

I have not and will not ever defend TDT.  Is Johnny Cochrane still around?  He might be interested.