FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[OldAuggie]

I was having dinner with some friends from BBE this past weekend & they were wondering why they had to play Mpls. North High? I responded, "because Mpls. North is THAT small of a school." That one seemed to get lost in translation.

That's part of it, but the other part is the MSHSL only counts poor kids (free/reduced price lunch) as 60% of the non-poor.  So if their actual enrollment is 400 with 350 poor kids, their adjusted enrollment for classification purposes is 260.  It doesn't make as much sense with Basketball when the poverty doesn't seem to reduce participation.

You have to be sh*tting me. The government counts the students of North, almost exclusively from a certain racial group, as approximately two thirds a person?  Sometimes you just can't make this stuff up.

The MSHSL probably would reject the notion that they're a government organization, but it's an association of mostly public schools and the state legislatures have been known to force the state athletic associations to do things from time to time.

I also forgot to mention that the schools above 50% poverty can apply to move an additional class down.  It's a race to the bottom with most high schools.  Regardless of what school administrators, winning is the only thing that matters.  They're all desperate to find a conference or class they can win.  I've mostly given up the argument to reduce the number of classes in high school sports.  I just want to change the name of the top class from AAAA or 6A to "Division 1" or "Open Class"  The trophy for the top division will just read "State Champion".  There can be only one State Champion, the rest are "Small School Class Champions".

I have a soft spot in my heart for Mnpls North but when I noticed they are in class 1A I was shocked. Looks like they went as low as they could go!

[AO]

I have a soft spot in my heart for Mpls North but when I noticed they are in class 1A I was shocked. Looks like they went as low as they could go!

me too.  Grew up watching North hoops with Khalid El-Amin and Ozzie Lockhart.  We had nice enough 4th grade teacher that allowed us to watch all their games during school.  Everybody loved the Polars.  Especially when they took out our hated rival Staples-Motley in the title game.

North did take it to BBE last night.  Gopher recruit Tyler Johnson accounted for 6 TDs in a 48-10 rout.

[MIAC23]

[/quote]
I also forgot to mention that the schools above 50% poverty can apply to move an additional class down.  It's a race to the bottom with most high schools.  Regardless of what school administrators say, winning is the only thing that matters.  They're all desperate to find a conference or class they can win.  I've mostly given up the argument to reduce the number of classes in high school sports.  I just want to change the name of the top class from AAAA or 6A to "Division 1" or "Open Class"  The trophy for the top division will just read "State Champion".  There can be only one State Champion, the rest are "Small School Class Champions".
[/quote]

I'm with you AO. Is there really a need for 7 classes for football in MN?! 4 in hoops? Baseball and Softball are moving from 3 to 4 classes this year as well. Pretty soon the section tournament will be called the state tournament, so every team can say they made it to state and feels good. I gt that the one class days are over, but I would like to see two classes in everything but football and in football I would go 9 man, combine single and double A, triple and AAAA, and then the rest.

[SJUrube]

If Platteville beats UWO, I would expect to see UWW ranked above all the other WIAC teams. It should put UST and SJU above all three. That probably would not necessarily be an indication of the worthiness of that ranking. As much as I would like to believe the Johnnies are in that discussion, I'm not all that sold on their defense yet. It seems that they are vulnerable to a strong run focused team (see UST vs SJU) and UWO might give them all they could handle. I have no relevant thoughts on Platteville as related to teams such as SJU, Con or Bethel.

Same thought here.  The offense has definitely increased output this year (congratulations to Jimmy on a job well done).  The defense is a bit shakey though.  We've been used to the defense holding teams down and the offense doing enough to win the last few years.  This year it feels more like the offense is running away from the other team and the defense is slowing them down a little, not stopping them.  Consider UST: a couple defensive stops by them, our defense unable to stop and the game slipped away big time in the third quarter.

Interesting topic. I think the offense has found a little more balance but I don't think opposing teams worry about much besides Sura and the running game. I actually think the defense has been the stronger of the two units - including the UST game.

They definitely wore down in the 2nd half but I think that was more a matter of how often they were on the field and not as much a reflection of not being up to the task. UST ran 44 plays in the first half, compared to 31 for SJU. The SJU defense was pretty stout, only giving up 154 yards (3.5 average), while the offense only picked up 115 (3.7 average). Roberts & Kaiser are big backs. Even if you're holding them to short gains eventually those hits, while they rotate in & out, is going to wear down a defense.

I felt lucky to have the scored tied 7-7. The 3rd QTR was a much different story as UST scored on all three of their possessions. The offense didn't to a lot to help them as they had drives of 6, 5 (INT) and 3 plays before each of the 3 UST TDs.

It would be interesting to look at the drive chart from the Concordia game. Both the offense and defense were clicking in the 1st half but things changed in the second half. The defense had trouble getting off the field in the 2nd half.

[DuffMan]

North did take it to BBE last night. 

As expected.  BBE is not a traditional football power.  Basketball, yes, but not football.

[d-train]

That's part of it, but the other part is the MSHSL only counts poor kids (free/reduced price lunch) as 60% of the non-poor.  So if their actual enrollment is 400 with 350 poor kids, their adjusted enrollment for classification purposes is 260.  It doesn't make as much sense with Basketball when the poverty doesn't seem to reduce participation.

You have to be sh*tting me. The government counts the students of North, almost exclusively from a certain racial group, as approximately two thirds a person?  Sometimes you just can't make this stuff up.

It really is unthinkable and borders on unforgivable. But you have to remember that this was over 200 years ago and was apparently the only way that both the Southern and Northern states were willing to sign the Constitution. Oh, wait a minute...

[AO]

North did take it to BBE last night. 

As expected.  BBE is not a traditional football power.  Basketball, yes, but not football.

Coincidentally, North is playing at Clemens Saturday at 5 for the section title. 

Pretty soon the section tournament will be called the state tournament,

This is already the case with the 6A tournament.  All 32 teams in the top class can put up state participation banners every year.

[USTBench]

That's part of it, but the other part is the MSHSL only counts poor kids (free/reduced price lunch) as 60% of the non-poor.  So if their actual enrollment is 400 with 350 poor kids, their adjusted enrollment for classification purposes is 260.  It doesn't make as much sense with Basketball when the poverty doesn't seem to reduce participation.

You have to be sh*tting me. The government counts the students of North, almost exclusively from a certain racial group, as approximately two thirds a person?  Sometimes you just can't make this stuff up.

It really is unthinkable and borders on unforgivable. But you have to remember that this was over 200 years ago and was apparently the only way that both the Southern and Northern states were willing to sign the Constitution. Oh, wait a minute...

I think that applying a Jim Crowe context to how you factor in poverty as it equates to student enrollment for athletics is pretty obtuse and extremely unfair. It's a necessary algorithm applied for the sake of fair play.

For hypothetical sake, let's say that Eden Prairie or Edina (bear in mind I don't know too much about Minnesota HS football, but I know enough) have the same enrollment as Minneapolis North. The southern suburbs have new equipment, indoor practice facilities, affluent parents sending them to clinics and camps, etc. Most kids come from two parent households and their parents only have to work one job, so the onus is not on a HS student to skip practice or not play athletics all together so they can watch their younger siblings.

This is not the case at Minneapolis North. A school that was nearly shutdown, where kids often have the responsibility of working to assist the family finances or watch younger siblings. They don't get new shoes or new equipment every year. Space to practice, space to workout is limited or non-existent. It's just deficiency after deficiency.

Our "big class" in North Dakota is AAA. There used to be a pretty large barometer there, where some AAA ND schools would be classified in Minnesota as 6A and some may be classified as 3A (which obviously lead to some lopsided scores). What has happened with the population boom is that certain cities have added AAA high schools. (WF Sheyenne, Bismarck Legacy, Fargo Davies) (Minot should add one but won't). Depending on the year and enrollment Fargo Shanley, Valley City, Devils Lake, Wahpeton and TMCHS (Belcourt - Turtle Mountain Community High School) can either be in AA or AAA. Typically, Shanley, Valley City, Devils Lake and Wahpeton can compete at the AAA level, but when TMCHS hits that magical enrollment number it's horrible. Scores are routinely 50 to 0 at halftime and the JV is tasked with finishing out the game. TMCHS is playing AA this year and is sitting at 0 - 8 with similar issues getting blown out every Friday. Fielding a competitive football team is expensive and a reservation school (like TMCHS), or economically depressed urban school just does not have the resources to compete at the highest of levels.

Their enrollment numbers may be there, but the reality is, these kids aren't going to the 7 on 7 passing clinic hosted by the U, or the Manning QB camp, or hiring a private instructor to teach them how to read defenses etc.

Hoops is different. More opportunities in urban areas to prove your ability, be it a varsity game, summer league or AAU game, more ways to maximize your exposure, and even if you can't afford to go to Nike or ABCD camp, your name will ring out if you're the best kid on a formidable blacktop. And all you need is a basketball and a pair of shoes.

Football, you get 8 regular season games in Minnesota and a playoff game. In ND you get 9 games and only 8 teams make the playoffs. Not a lot of time to prove or improve yourself

[d-train]

Bench - I don't disagree with those realities ($$) and with some type of 'enrollment adjustment'.  But if it's literally counting poor, non-white students as 60% (or 3/5th's) of a person, I'm struck by the irony and tone-deaf nature of that as a formula.  But please understand that my 'shock' is mostly sarcasm...mixed with a little bit of liberal/progressive white guilt.   

Keep Calm and Carry On...   

[OldAuggie]

I grew up near the North Side, these days it is a community that is in need of repair to say the least. If this formula will help build community spirit and school spirit then I am all for it. These kids need a break and having a chance to win the state football title, no matter what class, will be a huge boost. If North wins the state title it will be a big success story.

[USTBench]

I see where you're coming from, and I am guessing if there's a history teacher that sits on the board that made that decision he/she also cringed, but, what's the alternative?

I get where AO is coming from as it would apply to hoops, and "Open Class" and a "small class" or multiple small classes, but the reality is football is game where player safety needs to be the ultimate consideration in classification. Bagley HS can go play Bloomington Jefferson in hoops and the likelihood is that only egos will get hurt. But you match up Eden Prairie against a Class A football program, even a good one like Mahnomen, you'd better have some damn good athletic trainers on stand by.

In ND we have two classifications for hoops, "A" (the big class) and "B." The State B is the ultimate get for any city in terms of a 4 day economic boom. And now Fargo, Minot, Grand Forks and Bismarck are on a 4 year rotation for the tournament because 1) it's the only fair way to do it; and 2) they're the only 4 cities with venues big enough to host it. Last year 13,000 people showed up for the Boys B championship game (To put that in perspective, they tied the state basketball attendance record when Kansas played UND in Grand Forks in 2002 as a favor to Jeff Boschee) and I would put either one of those teams (Rugby and Four Winds/Minnewaukan) up against most Class A programs in our state and I think they'd win more often than not. Which is why it'd be really fun to try a one state one tournament scenario. There is something about the State B that is honestly magical, and I think a little school knocking off a Fargo South or Bismarck would only add to that. (Hoosiers style). But football? It would be a blood bath.

[AO]

For hypothetical sake, let's say that Eden Prairie or Edina (bear in mind I don't know too much about Minnesota HS football, but I know enough) have the same enrollment as Minneapolis North. The southern suburbs have new equipment, indoor practice facilities, affluent parents sending them to clinics and camps, etc. Most kids come from two parent households and their parents only have to work one job, so the onus is not on a HS student to skip practice or not play athletics all together so they can watch their younger siblings.

This is not the case at Minneapolis North. A school that was nearly shutdown, where kids often have the responsibility of working to assist the family finances or watch younger siblings. They don't get new shoes or new equipment every year. Space to practice, space to workout is limited or non-existent. It's just deficiency after deficiency.
Their enrollment numbers may be there, but the reality is, these kids aren't going to the 7 on 7 passing clinic hosted by the U, or the Manning QB camp, or hiring a private instructor to teach them how to read defenses etc.

Hoops is different. More opportunities in urban areas to prove your ability, be it a varsity game, summer league or AAU game, more ways to maximize your exposure, and even if you can't afford to go to Nike or ABCD camp, your name will ring out if you're the best kid on a formidable blacktop. And all you need is a basketball and a pair of shoes.

Football, you get 8 regular season games in Minnesota and a playoff game. In ND you get 9 games and only 8 teams make the playoffs. Not a lot of time to prove or improve yourself

I don't think it's a money problem for the Minneapolis and St. Paul kids.   They are the best funded schools in the state.  Their booster programs are smaller but the school district is spending significantly more money per student than any other district.  Minneapolis and St. Paul both run very inexpensive youth football programs through their parks and rec departments.   I think they just love hoops so much more.  This isn't Miami, Atlanta, Columbus or Detroit.  Many of the football oriented kids find their way to other bigger schools in the Suburbs or Cretin.  North is proving if you have a player like Tyler Johnson and he is charismatic enough to recruit other kids you can win.  They probably underestimated his ability when they decided to play in single A football and basketball.

[AO]

I would put either one of those teams (Rugby and Four Winds/Minnewaukan) up against most Class A programs in our state and I think they'd win more often than not. Which is why it'd be really fun to try a one state one tournament scenario. There is something about the State B that is honestly magical, and I think a little school knocking off a Fargo South or Bismarck would only add to that. (Hoosiers style). But football? It would be a blood bath.

I still have no idea how they got rid of the Sweet 16 format after 95' and 96'.  Khalid and North barely got by Staples in 95'.  Section finals around the state were so much bigger than they are now.  We've had multiple years with a dispute as to who the best team in the state is after the season is over.  St. Paul Johnson, De La Salle and as much as I hate to say it Litchfield were all either capable of winning it all or were undefeated having beaten the large class champ during the regular season.

[GoldandBlueBU]

I still have no idea how they got rid of the Sweet 16 format after 95' and 96'.  Khalid and North barely got by Staples in 95'.  Section finals around the state were so much bigger than they are now.  We've had multiple years with a dispute as to who the best team in the state is after the season is over.  St. Paul Johnson, De La Salle and as much as I hate to say it Litchfield were all either capable of winning it all or were undefeated having beaten the large class champ during the regular season.

Seeing who would have come out on top of the early 2000's Litchfield, Patrick Henry, and Mpls. North teams would have been a lot of fun.  I particularly remember Patrick Henry's Johnnie Gilbert being a man among boys.

[AO]

I still have no idea how they got rid of the Sweet 16 format after 95' and 96'.  Khalid and North barely got by Staples in 95'.  Section finals around the state were so much bigger than they are now.  We've had multiple years with a dispute as to who the best team in the state is after the season is over.  St. Paul Johnson, De La Salle and as much as I hate to say it Litchfield were all either capable of winning it all or were undefeated having beaten the large class champ during the regular season.

Seeing who would have come out on top of the early 2000's Litchfield, Patrick Henry, and Mpls. North teams would have been a lot of fun.  I particularly remember Patrick Henry's Johnnie Gilbert being a man among boys.

During Henry's 4peat in 3A I'm not sure they played a single exciting game.  They seemingly won every game by at least 15 and were just tossing oops off the backboard to each other by the 2nd half.  They'd only connect on one out of four but the game wasn't in doubt.