FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[d-train]

Interesting discussion. These days I mostly play basketball without my feet leaving the floor (I get up an inch or two on occasion). I blame football knees - but really I'm just fat and slow. I see unnecessary speed, quickness, and jumping ability all around me. Should I carry a yellow flag to throw...or maybe a yellow card like soccer? 

[USTBench]

This is going back a few pages, but it has been busy here.

A UST poster said with authority that the hit on Martin that put him out was not an intent to injure. Since the ball had left his hand, what exactly was the intent then? It could no longer affect that play. Also, and this is from memory, Martin had left the pocket, so he had escaped the pass rush. This hit came from either an LB or DB, who knew the status of the play at that time.

Just because Martin had left the pocket doesn't mean that he escaped the pass rush, evidenced by him being hit shortly after releasing the ball. The ref was right there so in his judgement it wasn't a late hit. Also, when a passer is outside the pocket they are then considered more of a runner and they don't get the same calls for roughing the passer like they would if they are still in the pocket. When you are chasing a qb at full speed, it is difficult to pull up instantly. The qb could also fake a throw and pull the ball down and run, so I don't think it was a late/dirty hit with intent to injure.

As a side note, I remember VOJ commenting on the play saying something like since Martin was hurt on the play then that should be evidence enough that it was a late hit/dirty play and should have been flagged - what kind of logic is that?

Again!!! I didn't say it was a penalty because it was late. However, my argument is that it might have been UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS. Just look at those words. I think it was unnecessarily rough. That may be what VOJ was thinking (I'm not a mindreader) The fact that he was injured is obvious evidence that it was rough. I also believe it was unnecessarily so. Whew! I'm getting a headache.

Perhaps you might feel more comfortable watching beach flag football on ABC's Wide World of Sports, or perhaps Blazer volleyball.

[Tom Thumb]

Just a few things to consider that were tangentially touched on.

Nick Martin took several big hits prior to the last one that knocked him out of the game. As an example, Jesse Addo hit Martin on the option play were he fumbled earlier in the game. Also, Adam Kraft's hit that caused an incomplete pass/fumble (judge for yourself https://ust5thquarterclub.shutterfly.com/2015pictures/13145#13145) was another big hit on Martin. I'm sure there were a few others. But both of those were clean hard hits and could have played a role in the last hit that took him out.

Lest we forget, Martin has a history with concussions. If I remember correctly, Martin was examined for a concussion a few games ago and had to miss the Concordia game last year because he was knocked out of the Eau Claire game with a concussion.

This is the last game where Addo hit LaVerne's QB which knocked him out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AexiSm1wqg8). The kid is FLYING. What are these kids supposed to do? Stop and ask the QB if he is going to hold on to the ball or throw it?

[RoyalsFan]

Again!!! I didn't say it was a penalty because it was late. However, my argument is that it might have been UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS. Just look at those words. I think it was unnecessarily rough. That may be what VOJ was thinking (I'm not a mindreader) The fact that he was injured is obvious evidence that it was rough. I also believe it was unnecessarily so. Whew! I'm getting a headache.

Really? Every time a player gets injured it should be flagged for unnecessary roughness?   

[Tom Thumb]

This is going back a few pages, but it has been busy here.

A UST poster said with authority that the hit on Martin that put him out was not an intent to injure. Since the ball had left his hand, what exactly was the intent then? It could no longer affect that play. Also, and this is from memory, Martin had left the pocket, so he had escaped the pass rush. This hit came from either an LB or DB, who knew the status of the play at that time.

Just because Martin had left the pocket doesn't mean that he escaped the pass rush, evidenced by him being hit shortly after releasing the ball. The ref was right there so in his judgement it wasn't a late hit. Also, when a passer is outside the pocket they are then considered more of a runner and they don't get the same calls for roughing the passer like they would if they are still in the pocket. When you are chasing a qb at full speed, it is difficult to pull up instantly. The qb could also fake a throw and pull the ball down and run, so I don't think it was a late/dirty hit with intent to injure.

As a side note, I remember VOJ commenting on the play saying something like since Martin was hurt on the play then that should be evidence enough that it was a late hit/dirty play and should have been flagged - what kind of logic is that?

Again!!! I didn't say it was a penalty because it was late. However, my argument is that it might have been UNNECESSARY ROUGHNESS. Just look at those words. I think it was unnecessarily rough. That may be what VOJ was thinking (I'm not a mindreader) The fact that he was injured is obvious evidence that it was rough. I also believe it was unnecessarily so. Whew! I'm getting a headache.

I disagree. What if the LB held up and bumped him or pushed him and Martin still hit his head on the ground (which is what caused the concussion). Would that have been unnecessary roughness?

[miac952]

Lots of talk about UST and the difference between playing hard and intent to injure. I will say this - and this is 100% fact (not conjecture). During the first meeting between SJU and UST, one of SJU's starters (and one of their All MIAC players) comes up limping after a play. This is a player who has endured three ankle surgeries during his college career. Upon seeing the player limp back to the huddle, players on the UST bench "inform" (by way of yelling to them) their teammates - "Number XX is hurt, go after his legs". I am not implying that the UST coaches tell their bench players to do this or that they in anyway condone such behavior, but attitude does tend to reflect leadership.

We could (and do) go back and forth on this stuff forever.  Watch #7 for St John's when he's in on the tackle of Dowdle when he runs in the two point conversion.  He literally steps on Dowdle's face, completely intentionally.   Connected to leadership?  Nah, I won't go that far.  At some point, it's football.

My example, the Joe Boyle thumb incident from a few years ago, trick plays versus a severely over-matched opponent, a high number of personal foul and roughing penalties..... You are right, at some point it is football, and then it crosses the line. When the culture of the program lends itself to incidents and issues that need to be defended, DESPITE the fact you have by far the best team in the conference. It just doesn't make sense to me, but hey what do I know. To each his own. Caruso and UST are what they are, and I respect their abilities, but I don't respect they way they conduct their business.

Just to be clear going for 2 up by 70 against Carleton in the 90's was cute though right? And the fun little double passes ole Gags drew up on the sideline in blow outs was fine too. No need to DEFEND any of that. Just part of the charm.

It's a bit rich when it is coming from a single fan base and always hits its peak after defeat. Throw a bunch of junk on a wall then tell them the process of even having to defend themselves is incriminating enough.

[Mr.MIAC]

Lots of talk about UST and the difference between playing hard and intent to injure. I will say this - and this is 100% fact (not conjecture). During the first meeting between SJU and UST, one of SJU's starters (and one of their All MIAC players) comes up limping after a play. This is a player who has endured three ankle surgeries during his college career. Upon seeing the player limp back to the huddle, players on the UST bench "inform" (by way of yelling to them) their teammates - "Number XX is hurt, go after his legs". I am not implying that the UST coaches tell their bench players to do this or that they in anyway condone such behavior, but attitude does tend to reflect leadership.

We could (and do) go back and forth on this stuff forever.  Watch #7 for St John's when he's in on the tackle of Dowdle when he runs in the two point conversion.  He literally steps on Dowdle's face, completely intentionally.   Connected to leadership?  Nah, I won't go that far.  At some point, it's football.

My example, the Joe Boyle thumb incident from a few years ago, trick plays versus a severely over-matched opponent, a high number of personal foul and roughing penalties..... You are right, at some point it is football, and then it crosses the line. When the culture of the program lends itself to incidents and issues that need to be defended, DESPITE the fact you have by far the best team in the conference. It just doesn't make sense to me, but hey what do I know. To each his own. Caruso and UST are what they are, and I respect their abilities, but I don't respect they way they conduct their business.

Just to be clear going for 2 up by 70 against Carleton in the 90's was cute though right? And the fun little double passes ole Gags drew up on the sideline in blow outs was fine too. No need to DEFEND any of that. Just part of the charm.

It's a bit rich when it is coming from a single fan base and always hits its peak after defeat. Throw a bunch of junk on a wall then tell them the process of even having to defend themselves is incriminating enough.

Wow, that was a breath of fresh air. Spot on. +K

[wm4]

Lots of talk about UST and the difference between playing hard and intent to injure. I will say this - and this is 100% fact (not conjecture). During the first meeting between SJU and UST, one of SJU's starters (and one of their All MIAC players) comes up limping after a play. This is a player who has endured three ankle surgeries during his college career. Upon seeing the player limp back to the huddle, players on the UST bench "inform" (by way of yelling to them) their teammates - "Number XX is hurt, go after his legs". I am not implying that the UST coaches tell their bench players to do this or that they in anyway condone such behavior, but attitude does tend to reflect leadership.

We could (and do) go back and forth on this stuff forever.  Watch #7 for St John's when he's in on the tackle of Dowdle when he runs in the two point conversion.  He literally steps on Dowdle's face, completely intentionally.   Connected to leadership?  Nah, I won't go that far.  At some point, it's football.

My example, the Joe Boyle thumb incident from a few years ago, trick plays versus a severely over-matched opponent, a high number of personal foul and roughing penalties..... You are right, at some point it is football, and then it crosses the line. When the culture of the program lends itself to incidents and issues that need to be defended, DESPITE the fact you have by far the best team in the conference. It just doesn't make sense to me, but hey what do I know. To each his own. Caruso and UST are what they are, and I respect their abilities, but I don't respect they way they conduct their business.

Just to be clear going for 2 up by 70 against Carleton in the 90's was cute though right? And the fun little double passes ole Gags drew up on the sideline in blow outs was fine too. No need to DEFEND any of that. Just part of the charm.

It's a bit rich when it is coming from a single fan base and always hits its peak after defeat. Throw a bunch of junk on a wall then tell them the process of even having to defend themselves is incriminating enough.

Ah, and we got to experience it TWICE this season.  Good times. 

[bennie]

Remind me again who it is that I am suppose to cheer for moving forward in the playoffs?

[MIAC23]

Remind me again who it is that I am suppose to cheer for moving forward in the playoffs?

If your squad is out, why would you cheer for anybody?

[DuffMan]

At least we Johnnie fans don't disappear after a loss. 

[Tom Thumb]

Remind me again who it is that I am suppose to cheer for moving forward in the playoffs?

I thought it was quite clear that SJU has been cheating on us with Linfield for quite sometime now. 

[RoyalsFan]

Remind me again who it is that I am suppose to cheer for moving forward in the playoffs?

You can cheer for whom ever you like - or no one if you prefer. Personally I'm going to root for the last MIAC team left.

[Pat Coleman]

Remind me again who it is that I am suppose to cheer for moving forward in the playoffs?

You can cheer for whom ever you like - or no one if you prefer. Personally I'm going to root for the last MIAC team left.

At least this year the last MIAC team left isn't Wartburg.

[bennie]

Had to wait a while before I could do this. Especially for Rev, Bench and CT. I believe that the Johnnies were a very good team this year. I guess the Toms were quite a bit better. Good luck, and .....

"...we Johnnies will be rooting for the Tommies next week."

Finished that one for you.

I know this was written tongue in cheek, but I also know that if I go back to past years where the Tommies have been in the playoffs and the Johnnies haven't, there have been plenty of comments implying that we should all jump on the Purple Bus for the sake of the MIAC. Tom Thumb, you are right, I will be jumping on a Purple Bus this year...a Red and Purple Bus...that kind of hurts my eyes and offends my ability to match, but the jaunty sailor cap is fun!