FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[retagent]

After a weekend of thinking about the St. Olaf score (and reading the stupid comments on the Star Tribune) I think I've come up with an answer.

1) No, UST and SJU should not go D2. D2 has the atmosphere of an abandoned tire plant, the academics of your average JUCO and the logistics of D1. It is terrible in every way.

2) A little over a decade ago, NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD all discussed the possibility of going D1 together. NDSU and SDSU did, USD and UND stayed back and watched how it played out. What happened was NDSU and SDSU 100% made the right call and enjoyed great success and UND was playing UM-Crookston in front of 2,000 people in a $100 million arena. UND and USD saw what was happening with NDSU and SDSU and finally decided to make the jump. There have been growing pains, but it was absolutely the right move.

3) I understand that UST has not yet won a national championship in football, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the criteria for moving up. UST is perennially a top 5 team in DIII and SJU is right on their heels. I think a serious conversation needs to be had between UST and SJU/CSB that there exists a possibility that the MIAC/DIII isn't the right fit for them anymore. However, I wouldn't move up unless the other institution is on board. You need a travel partner and a rival.

4) This of course flies in the face of what I love about college sports and DIII in particular, but UST beat a team that was 4-6 by a score of 97-0. This wasn't a conference bottom-feeder. This was a relatively average team by MIAC standards, purportedly the 2nd or 3rd best conference in the country.

5) I think the solution for UST and SJU/CSB is to look into the possibility of moving to FCS and joining the Pioneer League, and looking into something like the Horizon League for all other sports and the WCHA for hockey. UST and SJU/CSB have similar academics, facilities, missions, endowments, could be competitive right away and don't have to dig for scholarship money immediately because the Pioneer League is non-scholarship. The Horizon League is similar in every aspect but scholarships. I don't know if the WCHA would be viable with the current arena situation at both schools, but going D1 often means cutting programs.

6) This is probably a very unpopular take, but even the best team in the country playing their hardest for four quarters shouldn't be able to hang 97-rip or 98-rip on anyone playing at their same level. UST and SJU put 37,355 butts in seats at a MLB stadium. SJU averages nearly 10,000 per home game. That makes them Top 25 in attendance in FCS, and probably more than double that of any team in the Pioneer League. UST and SJU have outgrown the MIAC and it's probably time to move on like UMD did.

Before jumping any guns, look at UWW. They were dominant for about11 - 12 years, but have come down, somewhat to the pack. (By pack, I mean those teams that are very good, maybe top 30, but not dominant) They may very well return to the elite, but that remains to be seen. There are different factors contributing to a superior program. Many UWW fans on the board seem to believe it hinges on coaching staff - including recruitment. If GC takes the way of Leipold, UST may fall a bit. The Johnnies had a bit of a tail off when John retired. They seem to have righted the ship, and things look pretty good for the near future as well.

There would also be a huge outlay of funds needed to upgrade facilities. I don't know how UST would feel about that, but I don't see, and hope I don't see, St John's going that route.

[DuffMan]

There would also be a huge outlay of funds needed to upgrade facilities. I don't know how UST would feel about that...

I can ask our fill-in priest who feels the need to mention U$T at least 7x per mass. 

[wm4]

After a weekend of thinking about the St. Olaf score (and reading the stupid comments on the Star Tribune) I think I've come up with an answer.

1) No, UST and SJU should not go D2. D2 has the atmosphere of an abandoned tire plant, the academics of your average JUCO and the logistics of D1. It is terrible in every way.

2) A little over a decade ago, NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD all discussed the possibility of going D1 together. NDSU and SDSU did, USD and UND stayed back and watched how it played out. What happened was NDSU and SDSU 100% made the right call and enjoyed great success and UND was playing UM-Crookston in front of 2,000 people in a $100 million arena. UND and USD saw what was happening with NDSU and SDSU and finally decided to make the jump. There have been growing pains, but it was absolutely the right move.

3) I understand that UST has not yet won a national championship in football, but that doesn't necessarily need to be the criteria for moving up. UST is perennially a top 5 team in DIII and SJU is right on their heels. I think a serious conversation needs to be had between UST and SJU/CSB that there exists a possibility that the MIAC/DIII isn't the right fit for them anymore. However, I wouldn't move up unless the other institution is on board. You need a travel partner and a rival.

4) This of course flies in the face of what I love about college sports and DIII in particular, but UST beat a team that was 4-6 by a score of 97-0. This wasn't a conference bottom-feeder. This was a relatively average team by MIAC standards, purportedly the 2nd or 3rd best conference in the country.

5) I think the solution for UST and SJU/CSB is to look into the possibility of moving to FCS and joining the Pioneer League, and looking into something like the Horizon League for all other sports and the WCHA for hockey. UST and SJU/CSB have similar academics, facilities, missions, endowments, could be competitive right away and don't have to dig for scholarship money immediately because the Pioneer League is non-scholarship. The Horizon League is similar in every aspect but scholarships. I don't know if the WCHA would be viable with the current arena situation at both schools, but going D1 often means cutting programs.

6) This is probably a very unpopular take, but even the best team in the country playing their hardest for four quarters shouldn't be able to hang 97-rip or 98-rip on anyone playing at their same level. UST and SJU put 37,355 butts in seats at a MLB stadium. SJU averages nearly 10,000 per home game. That makes them Top 25 in attendance in FCS, and probably more than double that of any team in the Pioneer League. UST and SJU have outgrown the MIAC and it's probably time to move on like UMD did.

Before jumping any guns, look at UWW. They were dominant for about11 - 12 years, but have come down, somewhat to the pack. (By pack, I mean those teams that are very good, maybe top 30, but not dominant) They may very well return to the elite, but that remains to be seen. There are different factors contributing to a superior program. Many UWW fans on the board seem to believe it hinges on coaching staff - including recruitment. If GC takes the way of Leipold, UST may fall a bit. The Johnnies had a bit of a tail off when John retired. They seem to have righted the ship, and things look pretty good for the near future as well.

There would also be a huge outlay of funds needed to upgrade facilities. I don't know how UST would feel about that, but I don't see, and hope I don't see, St John's going that route.

The other thing to consider, from a 30,000 foot level, is what will football look like 10 years from now?  With youth participation down and high school down as well, how are all these rosters going to get filled?  Will there even be 240 D3 teams 10 years from now?  I could see a case whereby football, across all levels, contracts and not just marginally.  If that's the case, and those forces are at play, it may drive more parity and thus no longer a need to truly move divisions.  Challenging questions for sure.

[USTBench]

OldAuggie,

UWW has to deal with a Board of Regents who would never allow it. Major difference there.

I think if you read what I wrote more carefully you'd know I wasn't comparing UST to Mount Union. Also, it depends on your version of embarrassment. I would surmise that beating Heidelberg by 70 is no more or less embarrassing than any of the other lopsided scores SJU and UST dolls out. MUC goes almost entire decades without losing conference games.

But now that you mention it, it's probably not a bad idea for MUC to consider it either. They are nationally relevant in cross country, track and field and absolutely dominant in football every year. They have a substantial endowment and decent fan support comparable with other teams in the aforementioned Pioneer League. But I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about UST and SJU, and I'm sorry if it is offensive to you, but watching a game in Collegeville, and then watching a game at Augsburg or Carleton couldn't be more different. UST has done a ton to enhance the gameday atmosphere, and while not as much of a community-wide event as it is in Collegeville, it still has more of a big time atmosphere than 99% of D3.

I realize it's not all about endowment, Carleton and MAC have bigger endowments than UST. It's what you decide to prioritize on your campus, and UST and SJU have invested heavily in football and the rest of the MIAC (outside of Bethel and Concordia) just has not. Carleton could EASILY build a desperately needed new stadium that doesn't flood and isn't comically outdated, build their program to one hundred players year-in and year-out, and at least give the appearance that the administration is even aware there's a football team. They choose not to. They play in front of their parents and kids looking for a quiet place to do their homework outdoors on a Saturday. It's quite possible that as football gets more and more scrutinized some MIAC schools may cut the program all together. When you have the opportunity to play schools that care enough to at least invest somewhat in football, and play like-minded institutions, why stick around and continue to sleepwalk through another of year of hoping for 2 maybe 3 competitive games until you get deep into the playoffs?

UST will most likely not regress too far. Even your example of UWW will most likely be back to 9-1 or 10-0 as early as next year, because of the national brand they've built for themselves and their proximity to 2 huge metropolitan areas and another decent sized one. UST may have a down year and go 8-2 along the way, but it won't be sustained, even without Caruso.

When Dayton beat Ithaca 63-0 in the 1980 Stagg Bowl, they didn't stick around to see if they'd regress or other teams got better. They moved on. The Top 10 perennial teams in DIII have been the same for almost a decade, and the gap between them and the next 225 teams is massive, save for the John Carrolls and Concordias of the world. It's probably time for some of them to consider moving on.

[USTBench]

There would also be a huge outlay of funds needed to upgrade facilities. I don't know how UST would feel about that...

I can ask our fill-in priest who feels the need to mention U$T at least 7x per mass. 

Re: Upgrading facilities. I mentioned joining the non-scholarship Pioneer League, not the Missouri Valley. Check out their stadiums. I can assure you, no upgrade needed for either UST or SJU.

[DuffMan]

UST may have a down year and go 8-2 along the way, but it won't be sustained, even without Caruso.

What if Don Roney comes back to town?  U$T was relatively irrelevant prior to St. Glenn, why not again?

[miac952]

We are also forgetting that St Olaf was 1 or 2 in the conference about a decade ago. Their coach went to the Redskins and they haven't found the same success since or gotten the same buy-in from their leadership. I anticipate they continue t climb back up with this new staff they brought in. But what it shows is this is somewhat cyclical. D3 is a weird animal with gigantic skill gaps.

Should Augsburg or Wartburg consider a leap because of wrestling dominance or Gustavus with its tennis program or Kenyon with swimming? There are equivalent 98-0 type scores in those sports with those teams every week, but it doesn't get discussed. I don't have a good answer but a leap to D1 is impactful and o the entire identity of a school. Scholarships will be paid out, sports will have to be dropped. All ok the basis of dominance in a sport where neither UST or SJU has won a title in a decade plus. Heck, UST lost to Stout just this season.

Maybe we force running time in half two, maybe cap rosters to 100, and maybe allow teams to travel 80 or so, so 3's and 4's are playing.

20 years ago Augustana IL, LaCrosse, Williamette, and others were the powers. They have all fallen on harder times, albeit LaCrosse seems to be trending upward. The point is, while this isn't fun, this stuff is cyclical. Maybe put some guardrails in and see where it goes.

[wm4]

OldAuggie,

UWW has to deal with a Board of Regents who would never allow it. Major difference there.

I think if you read what I wrote more carefully you'd know I wasn't comparing UST to Mount Union. Also, it depends on your version of embarrassment. I would surmise that beating Heidelberg by 70 is no more or less embarrassing than any of the other lopsided scores SJU and UST dolls out. MUC goes almost entire decades without losing conference games.

But now that you mention it, it's probably not a bad idea for MUC to consider it either. They are nationally relevant in cross country, track and field and absolutely dominant in football every year. They have a substantial endowment and decent fan support comparable with other teams in the aforementioned Pioneer League. But I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about UST and SJU, and I'm sorry if it is offensive to you, but watching a game in Collegeville, and then watching a game at Augsburg or Carleton couldn't be more different. UST has done a ton to enhance the gameday atmosphere, and while not as much of a community-wide even as it is in Collegeville, it still has more of a big time atmosphere than 99% of D3.

I realize it's not all about endowment, Carleton and MAC have bigger endowments than UST. It's what you decide to prioritize on your campus, and UST and SJU have invested heavily in football and the rest of the MIAC (outside of Bethel and Concordia) just has not. Carleton could EASILY build a desperately needed new stadium that doesn't flood and isn't comically outdated, build their program to one hundred players year-in and year-out, and at least give the appearance that the administration is even aware there's a football team. They choose not to. They play in front of their parents and kids looking for a quiet place to do their homework outdoors on a Saturday. It's quite possible that as football gets more and more scrutinized some MIAC schools may cut the program all together. When you have the opportunity to play schools that care enough to at least invest somewhat in football, and play like-minded institutions, why stick around and continue to sleepwalk through another of year of hoping for 2 maybe 3 competitive games until you get deep into the playoffs?

UST will most likely not regress too far. Even your example of UWW will most likely be back to 9-1 or 10-0 as early as next year, because of the national brand they've built for themselves and their proximity to 2 huge metropolitan areas and another decent sized one. UST may have a down year and go 8-2 along the way, but it won't be sustained, even without Caruso.

When Dayton beat Ithaca 63-0 in the 1980 Stagg Bowl, they didn't stick around to see if they'd regress or other teams got better. They moved on. The Top 10 perennial teams in DIII have been the same for almost a decade, and the gap between them and the next 225 teams is massive, save for the John Carrolls and Concordias of the world. It's probably time for some of them to consider moving on.

Nailed it, well done Bench.

I'd propose a super championship bracket, consisting of 16 teams, all selected by a committee, and seeded.  These would essentially be the top teams in the country.  The finalists would play 14 total games, which is one less than now.  In an era of player safety, this can only be a good thing.  Because they're selected by committee, teams would be encouraged to schedule challenging games.  Going 8-2, but playing a tough non-conference schedule would be rewarded instead of a death sentence.  If we're honest with ourselves, 10-12 of these top 16 teams really don't change much, year after year. 

Then I'd have a second bracket, of 32 teams, with all the conference ties ins you could imagine.  And if your conference sends two teams to the champions bracket, then your third place team plays in the second bracket.  This would result in 32 teams that from top to bottom would way more closely matched than now.   

Yeah yeah, I know it will cost more money to fly more teams around, and really a pencil needs to be put to paper to see just how much that would be.  But I think something like this could work. 

[USTBench]

UST may have a down year and go 8-2 along the way, but it won't be sustained, even without Caruso.

What if Don Roney comes back to town?  U$T was relatively irrelevant prior to St. Glenn, why not again?

Don Roney was from an era when UST was comfortable making a guy far more interested in being the baseball coach their head football coach. The philosophy has changed, and with success and new facilities, it has become ironclad. UST was discussing this transition while they were merely average in football, by all accounts their flagship sport back in the early 2000s and late 90s.

I know it's kitschy and cool and part of the mystique, but I think SJU could maintain that playing Drake or Butler. Honestly, it's way more fitting. If you don't believe me, pop on over some random Saturday and watch a home game at Macalester or Crown. That's DIII. What SJU and UST have going is something much different.

[USTBench]

We are also forgetting that St Olaf was 1 or 2 in the conference about a decade ago. Their coach went to the Redskins and they haven't found the same success since or gotten the same buy-in from their leadership. I anticipate they continue t climb back up with this new staff they brought in. But what it shows is this is somewhat cyclical. D3 is a weird animal with gigantic skill gaps.

Should Augsburg or Wartburg consider a leap because of wrestling dominance or Gustavus with its tennis program or Kenyon with swimming? There are equivalent 98-0 type scores in those sports with those teams every week, but it doesn't get discussed. I don't have a good answer but a leap to D1 is impactful and o the entire identity of a school. Scholarships will be paid out, sports will have to be dropped. All ok the basis of dominance in a sport where neither UST or SJU has won a title in a decade plus. Heck, UST lost to Stout just this season.

Maybe we force running time in half two, maybe cap rosters to 100, and maybe allow teams to travel 80 or so, so 3's and 4's are playing.

20 years ago Augustana IL, LaCrosse, Williamette, and others were the powers. They have all fallen on harder times, albeit LaCrosse seems to be trending upward. The point is, while this isn't fun, this stuff is cyclical. Maybe put some guardrails in and see where it goes.

I think you're missing the point. It's about money. UST and SJU have it and spend it to be relevant at a revenue generating sport. Which wrestling and swimming is not. The WIAC in-and-of-itself is a different animal. They should probably be D2, but their Board of Regents doesn't want to deal with the headaches of scholarships, but in all ways besides scholarships they operate much the same way as D2 programs do.

SJU has never been cyclical, save for one year when they went 5-5. They bounce back VERY quick from down seasons. And UST just is not going back. Jumbotrons framed in limestone, contracts with WCCO, stadium upgrades nearly everywhere, $100 million athletic facilities, this is not the behavior of an administration that seems bent towards just being competitive in the MIAC. They want national championships and probably something bigger.

[OldAuggie]

OldAuggie,

UWW has to deal with a Board of Regents who would never allow it. Major difference there.

I think if you read what I wrote more carefully you'd know I wasn't comparing UST to Mount Union. Also, it depends on your version of embarrassment. I would surmise that beating Heidelberg by 70 is no more or less embarrassing than any of the other lopsided scores SJU and UST dolls out. MUC goes almost entire decades without losing conference games.

But now that you mention it, it's probably not a bad idea for MUC to consider it either. They are nationally relevant in cross country, track and field and absolutely dominant in football every year. They have a substantial endowment and decent fan support comparable with other teams in the aforementioned Pioneer League. But I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about UST and SJU, and I'm sorry if it is offensive to you, but watching a game in Collegeville, and then watching a game at Augsburg or Carleton couldn't be more different. UST has done a ton to enhance the gameday atmosphere, and while not as much of a community-wide even as it is in Collegeville, it still has more of a big time atmosphere than 99% of D3.

I realize it's not all about endowment, Carleton and MAC have bigger endowments than UST. It's what you decide to prioritize on your campus, and UST and SJU have invested heavily in football and the rest of the MIAC (outside of Bethel and Concordia) just has not. Carleton could EASILY build a desperately needed new stadium that doesn't flood and isn't comically outdated, build their program to one hundred players year-in and year-out, and at least give the appearance that the administration is even aware there's a football team. They choose not to. They play in front of their parents and kids looking for a quiet place to do their homework outdoors on a Saturday. It's quite possible that as football gets more and more scrutinized some MIAC schools may cut the program all together. When you have the opportunity to play schools that care enough to at least invest somewhat in football, and play like-minded institutions, why stick around and continue to sleepwalk through another of year of hoping for 2 maybe 3 competitive games until you get deep into the playoffs?

UST will most likely not regress too far. Even your example of UWW will most likely be back to 9-1 or 10-0 as early as next year, because of the national brand they've built for themselves and their proximity to 2 huge metropolitan areas and another decent sized one. UST may have a down year and go 8-2 along the way, but it won't be sustained, even without Caruso.

When Dayton beat Ithaca 63-0 in the 1980 Stagg Bowl, they didn't stick around to see if they'd regress or other teams got better. They moved on. The Top 10 perennial teams in DIII have been the same for almost a decade, and the gap between them and the next 225 teams is massive, save for the John Carrolls and Concordias of the world. It's probably time for some of them to consider moving on.

I did read the reference to not winning a national championship yet if that is what you are carefully saying. I get that. The reference to UMD is almost valid but they had legit D1 hockey when they jumped to the NIC in football. I was there in 81 and 82 and we were good, well  beyond the MIAC but not NDSU good. Actually in my day which was brief, UMD always played UW-Superior in football, and they were D3. The scores were similar to UST or SJU v a low end MIAC school.  You can look them up but UWS was not a powerful D3 team to say the least. Yes I think UMD is a good comparison Bench, but again they had established D1 hockey when football made the jump.

[miac952]

I had to look it up out of curiousity.

*The last time Gustavus lost a MIAC tennis title, Ronald Reagan was in office.

*UST has NEVER lost a MIAC indoor track title, and only been beaten a couple times on the outdoor stage the past couple decades.

*Augsburg is 206-7 against the MIAC in wrestling.

This is D3. Football gets a bigger spotlight, but as you can see above the gap is even bigger in other sports.

[jamtod]

How do the Johnnies matchup against North Central?

Sounds like Erdmann didn't play great and had some questionable decisions on Saturday. Was this a symptom of the defensive looks Concordia was throwing at you or is there something not right with him?

I know North Central has a stud QB and RB but don't know much beyond that.

[miac952]

Maybe a two tiered NCAA football tournament could work. Maybe with that then the MIAC and CCIW (similar conferences) come together and have the top half play each other and the bottom half play each other during the season to tier the conferences as well.  A relegation system can be put in place when teams need calibrate up or down every couple seasons.

[miac952]

North Central is a tough team to put a finger on. Take out that odd Monday night weather delay continuation and they have had one heck of a season. It's the game of the week in round one and a lot of people will be tuning in. I hope they have some good bandwidth for their webcast.

Side note, can Linfield still charge the ABSURD $15 or whatever it is for a webcast in the playoffs? The Hardin Simmons - Linfield game should be a good one. I'm sure some people in TX won't be able to make the trip and that price gouge seems obscene when the whole rest of the D3 planet is offering it up for free.