FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[johnnie_esq]

Wow, a return by Johnnie_Esq after only 2.5+ years. 

The HS season does tie me up a little bit...

The rule in question is a MSHSL one: one ejection means you sit out one game, two ejections means you sit out four.  Because there are different officiating crews each week, you generally don't have any bias in that an official could know to "watch out for #91".  The fact that two different officiating crews found an ejectable offense-- when the clear bias is to allow kids to always keep playing-- should say something about this kid in its own right.

My team saw only one ejection all year, between us and our opponents-- and our kid deserved it.  He did his time and learned his lesson, and knew clearly where the line was thereafter since he knew the penalty thereafter was the loss of the rest of his senior year. 

[OzJohnnie]

Wow, a return by Johnnie_Esq after only 2.5+ years. 

The HS season does tie me up a little bit...

The rule in question is a MSHSL one: one ejection means you sit out one game, two ejections means you sit out four.  Because there are different officiating crews each week, you generally don't have any bias in that an official could know to "watch out for #91".  The fact that two different officiating crews found an ejectable offense-- when the clear bias is to allow kids to always keep playing-- should say something about this kid in its own right.

My team saw only one ejection all year, between us and our opponents-- and our kid deserved it.  He did his time and learned his lesson, and knew clearly where the line was thereafter since he knew the penalty thereafter was the loss of the rest of his senior year. 

Well that's pretty clear cut.  Which is good.

Out of curiosity, can suspensions be overturned?  Say the school's video from the end zone shows that a player tripped or was pushed into someone and the hit wasn't intentional. Do refs review that footage later and overturn their suspension, forgiving an ejection?

[AO]

As a HS coach, blindside hits are a point of emphasis this year with officials with an attempt to take out dangerous, unexpected hits out of the game, with a particular concern about crackback blocks in changes of possession. The lesson from the MSHSL is to coach it out of existence, and where it appears that a player is intentionally trying to make the block in a hard manner (as opposed to uncoordinately doing so), to eject the player.  If the kid makes the block from the front and leads with the hands, no problem- and you still spring the big play accordingly; but this kid intends a knockout blow, which is what the rules are trying to outlaw.

I'd say he hit from the front with his shoulder and hands and targeted slightly below the shoulder of the QB, but it certainly fit the bill of unnecessary and dangerous.  I'd like to see the kicking video before deciding whether 4 games was too much. 

[hazzben]

I don't know if going after that 13-year-old asshole was the right call. But it was justice.

Ha! Love it.

We had a similar deal in 7th grade practice. We were scrimmaging the 8th graders (and were better than them by a country mile). One of their players was struggling to block on the edge and our subs were mocking him from the sideline. After about 15 minutes of it, the 8th grade coach called "Sideline Sweep" ... they broke the huddle, went to the line, and on the snap proceeded to run to the sideline and take out all the little 7th grade punks that were mocking the kid. The subs learned their lesson real quick.  Though I have wondered what would have happened to the coach if one of those punks had broken an arm or something. Different time back then.

[johnnie_esq]

Well that's pretty clear cut.  Which is good.

Out of curiosity, can suspensions be overturned?  Say the school's video from the end zone shows that a player tripped or was pushed into someone and the hit wasn't intentional. Do refs review that footage later and overturn their suspension, forgiving an ejection?

It is a referee's prerogative to review video.  It is technically an unsportsmanlike penalty for a coach to even suggest a video review, but most referees are pretty willing to ensure they got it right before issuing their report.  Once the report is finalized, however, the matter is closed.  Game reports are usually completed within 24 hours of the game itself, and almost always within about 2 hours of the game.

[johnnie_esq]

As a HS coach, blindside hits are a point of emphasis this year with officials with an attempt to take out dangerous, unexpected hits out of the game, with a particular concern about crackback blocks in changes of possession. The lesson from the MSHSL is to coach it out of existence, and where it appears that a player is intentionally trying to make the block in a hard manner (as opposed to uncoordinately doing so), to eject the player.  If the kid makes the block from the front and leads with the hands, no problem- and you still spring the big play accordingly; but this kid intends a knockout blow, which is what the rules are trying to outlaw.

I'd say he hit from the front with his shoulder and hands and targeted slightly below the shoulder of the QB, but it certainly fit the bill of unnecessary and dangerous.  I'd like to see the kicking video before deciding whether 4 games was too much.

There is no way he led with the hands. Zero.  He was in front, but he led with his shoulder.  The MSHSL uses a video to illustrate what it means to lead with the hands, and it basically shows that the arms have to be outstretched when contact is made.  It is a textbook illegal block under this year's MSHSL rules. 

[OzJohnnie]

Well that's pretty clear cut.  Which is good.

Out of curiosity, can suspensions be overturned?  Say the school's video from the end zone shows that a player tripped or was pushed into someone and the hit wasn't intentional. Do refs review that footage later and overturn their suspension, forgiving an ejection?

It is a referee's prerogative to review video.  It is technically an unsportsmanlike penalty for a coach to even suggest a video review, but most referees are pretty willing to ensure they got it right before issuing their report.  Once the report is finalized, however, the matter is closed.  Game reports are usually completed within 24 hours of the game itself, and almost always within about 2 hours of the game.

I reckon the MSHSL will eventually get themselves in trouble there and will end up with some tribunal review system.  One day a blatantly wrong call will be made that results in suspension and someone will sue, forcing a review policy to get created.  In-game penalties will always be as called, particularly in high school, but suspensions that erroneously ignore relevant contrary evidence (in my hypothetical example) will get looked at eventually.  Some superstar athlete will claim damages, etc, eventually.

I could be wrong (and frequently am wrong) but it seems to me that as the severity of penalties increases then the process to award those penalties must also improve to match the seriousness of the penalty.  It will all become more legal-like with penalties divided into summary categories which are finalised at the contest and indictable categories which will go to some sort of tribunal for resolution.  The consequence of a referee error are too great on the mis-judged player not to have some sort of review system.  IMO, anyways.  We'll see eventually, I suppose.

[AO]

As a HS coach, blindside hits are a point of emphasis this year with officials with an attempt to take out dangerous, unexpected hits out of the game, with a particular concern about crackback blocks in changes of possession. The lesson from the MSHSL is to coach it out of existence, and where it appears that a player is intentionally trying to make the block in a hard manner (as opposed to uncoordinately doing so), to eject the player.  If the kid makes the block from the front and leads with the hands, no problem- and you still spring the big play accordingly; but this kid intends a knockout blow, which is what the rules are trying to outlaw.

I'd say he hit from the front with his shoulder and hands and targeted slightly below the shoulder of the QB, but it certainly fit the bill of unnecessary and dangerous.  I'd like to see the kicking video before deciding whether 4 games was too much.

There is no way he led with the hands. Zero.  He was in front, but he led with his shoulder.  The MSHSL uses a video to illustrate what it means to lead with the hands, and it basically shows that the arms have to be outstretched when contact is made.  It is a textbook illegal block under this year's MSHSL rules.

They're disallowing the use of shoulders in tackling?  Everything I've read was an emphasis on using only the hands, shoulders and chest to tackle.

[wm4]

As a HS coach, blindside hits are a point of emphasis this year with officials with an attempt to take out dangerous, unexpected hits out of the game, with a particular concern about crackback blocks in changes of possession. The lesson from the MSHSL is to coach it out of existence, and where it appears that a player is intentionally trying to make the block in a hard manner (as opposed to uncoordinately doing so), to eject the player.  If the kid makes the block from the front and leads with the hands, no problem- and you still spring the big play accordingly; but this kid intends a knockout blow, which is what the rules are trying to outlaw.

I'd say he hit from the front with his shoulder and hands and targeted slightly below the shoulder of the QB, but it certainly fit the bill of unnecessary and dangerous.  I'd like to see the kicking video before deciding whether 4 games was too much.

There is no way he led with the hands. Zero.  He was in front, but he led with his shoulder.  The MSHSL uses a video to illustrate what it means to lead with the hands, and it basically shows that the arms have to be outstretched when contact is made.  It is a textbook illegal block under this year's MSHSL rules.

They're disallowing the use of shoulders in tackling?  Everything I've read was an emphasis on using only the hands, shoulders and chest to tackle.

The play in question was a blocking play after an interception, not a tackle.

[OzJohnnie]

As a HS coach, blindside hits are a point of emphasis this year with officials with an attempt to take out dangerous, unexpected hits out of the game, with a particular concern about crackback blocks in changes of possession. The lesson from the MSHSL is to coach it out of existence, and where it appears that a player is intentionally trying to make the block in a hard manner (as opposed to uncoordinately doing so), to eject the player.  If the kid makes the block from the front and leads with the hands, no problem- and you still spring the big play accordingly; but this kid intends a knockout blow, which is what the rules are trying to outlaw.

I'd say he hit from the front with his shoulder and hands and targeted slightly below the shoulder of the QB, but it certainly fit the bill of unnecessary and dangerous.  I'd like to see the kicking video before deciding whether 4 games was too much.

There is no way he led with the hands. Zero.  He was in front, but he led with his shoulder.  The MSHSL uses a video to illustrate what it means to lead with the hands, and it basically shows that the arms have to be outstretched when contact is made.  It is a textbook illegal block under this year's MSHSL rules.

They're disallowing the use of shoulders in tackling?  Everything I've read was an emphasis on using only the hands, shoulders and chest to tackle.

The video shows it wasn't a tackle.  It was a blind side shoulder charge about 8-10 yards off the play.  Pretty much a textbook example of a poor hit.

You could argue that this rule could lead to a degradation of the game and is ripe for misinterpretation and overreaction but this example doesn't support that argument.

[DBQ1965]

I assume the decision for a 4 game decision was made by the Minnesota governing authority and not by the official on the field.  Personally, I like the idea of a first infraction, sit out one ... the second infraction sit out four.   Probably parents are suing to keep their dreams of a big-time scholarship offer for their son on his way to an NFL career.  It looked like a completely unnecessary,  blind side block of the "see how tough I am" variety.

[faunch]

I assume the decision for a 4 game decision was made by the Minnesota governing authority and not by the official on the field.  Personally, I like the idea of a first infraction, sit out one ... the second infraction sit out four.   Probably parents are suing to keep their dreams of a big-time scholarship offer for their son on his way to an NFL career.  It looked like a completely unnecessary,  blind side block of the "see how tough I am" variety.

And let's remember....it sound like he sat our part of game 6 and all of game 7 for a suspension. Evidently he didn't get the message after being benched. In a college game he would have been flagged and if another replay showed any part of the crown of the helmet hitting that QB in the chest he would have been ejected.

[Robert Zimmerman]

This kid reminds me of a story that Robert Zimmerman knows as well...

In 8th grade we had a dominant team thanks to our 6-foot running back who averaged about 20 yards per carry. In one game the other team had a linebacker who kept taking dirty shots, late hits, all kinds of crap. On the final play of the game, with us leading, the coach sent a running back in to relay the call to me, our game manager of a QB. A simple running play. With an addition. "Get Red Man." The kid was wearing a red sweatshirt under his jersey. Everyone knew what it meant. At the snap I handed the ball off to the running back and our 9 teammates chased after the linebacker in question. We had big kids. Mean kids. They captured him and planted him onto the field and then dogpiled. By the time they emerged from the pile they were all cheering and the kid was on the ground moaning and writhing. Their parents were outraged, I think our parents appreciated it and we sort of had to be separated. A real 8th grade brouhaha. After the game coach told us not to talk about the incident. Real Nixonian. But at that moment, our team loved him. I don't know if going after that 13-year-old asshole was the right call. But it was justice.

I remember watching this as a 78 pound 7th grader on the sideline waiting to play in the next game.  It was like watching a real life Stanley Milgram experiment unfold right in front of my eyes.  Everyone knew it was wrong but yet felt so right.
I couldn't believe an adult encouraged it because it was not the character of the teacher/coach.  In hindsight, the only thing that would have made this better was if it was called a "Code Red" in the huddle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psl7ZVwiRl4

[AO]

As a HS coach, blindside hits are a point of emphasis this year with officials with an attempt to take out dangerous, unexpected hits out of the game, with a particular concern about crackback blocks in changes of possession. The lesson from the MSHSL is to coach it out of existence, and where it appears that a player is intentionally trying to make the block in a hard manner (as opposed to uncoordinately doing so), to eject the player.  If the kid makes the block from the front and leads with the hands, no problem- and you still spring the big play accordingly; but this kid intends a knockout blow, which is what the rules are trying to outlaw.

I'd say he hit from the front with his shoulder and hands and targeted slightly below the shoulder of the QB, but it certainly fit the bill of unnecessary and dangerous.  I'd like to see the kicking video before deciding whether 4 games was too much.

There is no way he led with the hands. Zero.  He was in front, but he led with his shoulder.  The MSHSL uses a video to illustrate what it means to lead with the hands, and it basically shows that the arms have to be outstretched when contact is made.  It is a textbook illegal block under this year's MSHSL rules.

They're disallowing the use of shoulders in tackling?  Everything I've read was an emphasis on using only the hands, shoulders and chest to tackle.

The video shows it wasn't a tackle.  It was a blind side shoulder charge about 8-10 yards off the play.  Pretty much a textbook example of a poor hit.

You could argue that this rule could lead to a degradation of the game and is ripe for misinterpretation and overreaction but this example doesn't support that argument.

I'm definitely getting my tackles and blocks confused but I assume the shoulder is still allowed in most blocks, just disallowed in this "blindside" scenario.  In other words, I believe it's a legal hit if the blocker came from a more obvious angle that the QB saw coming.

[OzJohnnie]

@bobby

Ha!  Code Red.  That movie was pretty much textbook lawyer against the odds and the system fare, but that moment was spectacular. Code Red has entered the pop culture lexicon.  I wish "puttin' on the foil, coach" had the same broad popularity.  When I tell someone that I'm putting on the foil before a meeting it doesn't have a ring.  But when I tell someone I ordered a Code Red they know exactly what I mean.

Also, Jules from Pulp Fiction.  But you can't use half of Samuel L Jackson's vocabulary in polite company and it's not the same without ***********r this and ****h that.  "'What'?  I ain't never heard of no country named What.  Do they speak English in What?"

EDIT: I just had to go listen to a youtube clip of Jules going off and poor Brad with the big brain.  I've updated the quote's accuracy.