FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[johnnie_esq]

Great insight as always, ESQ. But it still seems difficult to separate the football dominance from it. It's impossible to know if this would still be happening if St. Thomas had remained mired in mediocrity in football since 2008, but it just seems unlikely. With respect to the harriers, thinclads, volleyball players, baseball players and cagers, I don't think the Tommies' dominance in other sports leads to lots of consternation. (on the other hand, maybe it was impossible for them to remain mediocre given the institutional focus you pointed out and that's the problem).

You are right in that the results of track and field aren't going to move an institutional needle.  But I believe the dominance is the effect, not the cause in this scenario.

I remain very intrigued by UST's hire of an AD.  Esten was on a B1G AD fast track for a long time and was second in command at Penn State, which is a premium AD job in the country.  Going D3, while we love and enjoy it, is a serious step back in a career...unless he was hired to bring the Toms to a different place.  The alumni reason would be more likely if it was a swan song on a career, but from all accounts he has not yet plateau'd.  Make no mistake, it was a great hire for the Toms-- but curious on his account going from the #2 at Minnesota, to the #2 at Cal, to the #2 at Penn State.....makes me think there is more to the story.

[johnnie_esq]

So is it about athletics or is it about Mission and Values? Because there are mixed mission and values conferences in DIII. JHU in the Centennial is the obvious example. I'd say CMU in the PAC. Chicago in the MWC. Tufts in the NESCAC. Conversely, there are tons of conferences where one team dominates athletically. In the ODAC, W&L has won the all-sports trophy 22 out of the 24 times it has been awarded as an example. UMHB, UMU, there are more.

It's hard to get around the fact that STU is a founding member of the MIAC. Kicking them out because they got too big or win too much, which seems to be the dual arguments regardless of which is primary and which is secondary, is something that many other conferences seem to deal with. The MIAC schools pushing this seem to not want to deal with something that is pretty routine across DIII. That's... unique.

I don't think anybody is making an argument that UST doesn't belong in D3.  I think some in the MIAC are saying the conference doesn't want that type of mission and values in it.  In short, CST was a founding member; UST is not.

[jknezek]

So is it about athletics or is it about Mission and Values? Because there are mixed mission and values conferences in DIII. JHU in the Centennial is the obvious example. I'd say CMU in the PAC. Chicago in the MWC. Tufts in the NESCAC. Conversely, there are tons of conferences where one team dominates athletically. In the ODAC, W&L has won the all-sports trophy 22 out of the 24 times it has been awarded as an example. UMHB, UMU, there are more.

It's hard to get around the fact that STU is a founding member of the MIAC. Kicking them out because they got too big or win too much, which seems to be the dual arguments regardless of which is primary and which is secondary, is something that many other conferences seem to deal with. The MIAC schools pushing this seem to not want to deal with something that is pretty routine across DIII. That's... unique.

I don't think anybody is making an argument that UST doesn't belong in D3.  I think some in the MIAC are saying the conference doesn't want that type of mission and values in it.  In short, CST was a founding member; UST is not.

Interesting perspective. Thanks. +K

[Smitty Oom]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

Or does a transition into a different D3 conference (MWC? ARC to make an even 10 members?) make more sense for them?

[johnnie_esq]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

I don't think there is much draw for a school like UST to go D2.  Their costs would go up and their revenues would likely suffer.  There is little draw from their alumni to watch the Tommies play UMD, St. Cloud State and Moorhead State regularly.  (Though, keep in mind UMD was a MIAC member into the 1970s, so there is some history there).

I think the Toms would be more likely to try joining up with Drake in D1-Championship Subdivision, but only with nonscholarship football.  That way they would be able to compete in March Madness, but not have the responsibility to pay for 32+ football scholarships per year. 

I wouldn't be shocked to see them try to connect with the WIAC, however.  Institutionally, they are more similar to those schools given their graduate programs.

[Pat Coleman]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

What do they do with hockey?

[Pat Coleman]

To date, St. Thomas (6200 undergrad/3700 graduate) educationally looks more like Marquette (8400 undergrad/3200 graduate) and Creighton (4200 undergrad/4200 graduate). Their graduate programs are a significant focus of their educational mission, and they appear to use graduate and undergraduate resources interchangeably, which is a very wise organizational decision, but this looks nothing like the rest of the MIAC's institutional setup, who have remained small undergraduate-focused liberal arts colleges. 

Or, D-III schools which are similar, such as Ithaca or Chapman. Let alone the UAA schools, which are all much larger.

[hickory_cornhusker]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

What do they do with hockey?

I know this question is for if they go D2 but I just realized the WIAC might have already placed a call to UST saying their hockey teams have a home in the WIAC if they want it.

[Smitty Oom]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

What do they do with hockey?

I know this question is for if they go D2 but I just realized the WIAC might have already placed a call to UST saying their hockey teams have a home in the WIAC if they want it.

I do not know the logistics of hockey, but would the WCHA be a reasonable landing spot for them?

[BDB]

UST is close enough to Wiscy. Time to move to the Dark Side = WIAC   

[miac952]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

I don't think there is much draw for a school like UST to go D2.  Their costs would go up and their revenues would likely suffer.  There is little draw from their alumni to watch the Tommies play UMD, St. Cloud State and Moorhead State regularly.  (Though, keep in mind UMD was a MIAC member into the 1970s, so there is some history there).

I think the Toms would be more likely to try joining up with Drake in D1-Championship Subdivision, but only with nonscholarship football.  That way they would be able to compete in March Madness, but not have the responsibility to pay for 32+ football scholarships per year. 

I wouldn't be shocked to see them try to connect with the WIAC, however.  Institutionally, they are more similar to those schools given their graduate programs.

There are virtually no similarities between UST and the WIAC "institutionally." More similarities exist in the MIAC. Public/private, different state, grad programs, academic areas and standards, religious afilliation. Even enrollment is different. UST would be a small fish in that regard. That's probably UST's identity problem. Who is similar in D3 I'm the Midwest? Wash U. I'm sure they would scoff at it, and I get that. Bigger endowment and academic profile, but as close of a comparable as I can think of.

If this happens the track to D1 is forced. Hockey will likely get gashed. Football will be non scholarship and other sports will get cut.

[miac952]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

What do they do with hockey?

I know this question is for if they go D2 but I just realized the WIAC might have already placed a call to UST saying their hockey teams have a home in the WIAC if they want it.

I do not know the logistics of hockey, but would the WCHA be a reasonable landing spot for them?

No more D1 waivers for non D1 schools to do Hockey or Lacrosse.

[Smitty Oom]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

What do they do with hockey?

I know this question is for if they go D2 but I just realized the WIAC might have already placed a call to UST saying their hockey teams have a home in the WIAC if they want it.

I do not know the logistics of hockey, but would the WCHA be a reasonable landing spot for them?

No more D1 waivers for non D1 schools to do Hockey or Lacrosse.

Is that per NCAA?

[GoldandBlueBU]

I'm with coach J - UST, while they don't fit the profile of the rest of the MIAC, has without a doubt raised the bar for the rest of the league.   I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that all of BU's playoff runs have come after UST became good.

Also, so if UST gets the boot, SJU becomes the big bad bully...in 15 years, does the bottom of the conference get sick of losing to them, and conspire to throw them out?  I don't like the precedent...

[Caz Bombers]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

What do they do with hockey?

I know this question is for if they go D2 but I just realized the WIAC might have already placed a call to UST saying their hockey teams have a home in the WIAC if they want it.

I do not know the logistics of hockey, but would the WCHA be a reasonable landing spot for them?

No more D1 waivers for non D1 schools to do Hockey or Lacrosse.

Is that per NCAA?

if they go to D2, then m/w hockey can theoretically go D1 with scholarships, specifically because there is no D2 hockey.