FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Smitty Oom]

I'm with coach J - UST, while they don't fit the profile of the rest of the MIAC, has without a doubt raised the bar for the rest of the league.   I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that all of BU's playoff runs have come after UST became good.

Also, so if UST gets the boot, SJU becomes the big bad bully...in 15 years, does the bottom of the conference get sick of losing to them, and conspire to throw them out?  I don't like the precedent...

This is huge and a very good point. The bottom tier Football teams/programs are just flat out bad. Take Concordia's mediocre 2018 season, they still thrashed Hamline and Augsburg 55-0 and 54-7, respectively. Getting rid of UST means these lower rung teams will still be beat handily by BU/SJU/Conco. What does it really solve? It also will take away from the SOS and vRRO of the remaining MIAC teams fighting for Pool C bids.

[GoldandBlueBU]

I'm with coach J - UST, while they don't fit the profile of the rest of the MIAC, has without a doubt raised the bar for the rest of the league.   I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that all of BU's playoff runs have come after UST became good.

Also, so if UST gets the boot, SJU becomes the big bad bully...in 15 years, does the bottom of the conference get sick of losing to them, and conspire to throw them out?  I don't like the precedent...

This is huge and a very good point. The bottom tier Football teams/programs are just flat out bad. Take Concordia's mediocre 2018 season, they still thrashed Hamline and Augsburg 55-0 and 54-7, respectively. Getting rid of UST means these lower rung teams will still be beat handily by BU/SJU/Conco. What does it really solve? It also will take away from the SOS and vRRO of the remaining MIAC teams fighting for Pool C bids.

Smarter playoff minds than me will have to answer - but would losing UST make the MIAC less likely to get any at large football bids?  I would think so, but I know it's complicate..

[AO]

If you're really that focused on at-large bids, getting rid of St. Thomas could be helpful in many sports.   Every team can add wins in the non-conference schedule and subtract losses in the conference schedule.  You might be missing out on a regionally ranked win over St. Thomas but if the Tommies leave the division, another MIAC team might take their place in the regional rankings.

I'd be much more worried about the MIAC losing position in the all-important D3football.com conference power rankings.

[GoldandBlueBU]

If you're really that focused on at-large bids, getting rid of St. Thomas could be helpful in many sports.   Every team can add wins in the non-conference schedule and subtract losses in the conference schedule.  You might be missing out on a regionally ranked win over St. Thomas but if the Tommies leave the division, another MIAC team might take their place in the regional rankings.

I'd be much more worried about the MIAC losing position in the all-important D3football.com conference power rankings.

Can you check with your connections - if Hamline, Carleton, and Olaf split, do UNWSP, CSS, and a third party (maybe UWS?) want to join the MIAC?

[MiacMan]

Finally, something to discuss again. Yay! My 2 cents: This is really only a football problem and mainly because of the physicality of the sport. The gap between the haves and the have-nots will only continue to grow in football as the numbers continue to dwindle at the youth and HS levels. The solution could be applied to just football only but I believe the other sports would benefit as well. They should add 5 teams (Mac, Northwestern, Scholastica, Crown and Morris)There would be two divisions under the MIAC umbrella (Miac-Black and Miac-Blue) (Black: UST, SJU, Concordia, Bethel, Gustavus, STO, Auggie) (Blue: Hamline, Carleton, Mac, NW, Scholastica, Crown and Morris) Teams play within their own sub-division (6-games). They would cross over based on previous seasons finish for 2-games which would not be counted in sub-division standings. There would need to be a championship at the end of the season (possibly a "US Bank Day") Yes, I understand that these games would likely be onesided but it would give the blue/lower division a chance to still make the playoffs as the auto-bid would be on the line. It would not hurt the the #2 black/upper div. team from making the playoffs at-large (assuming they took care of business against the #2 blue). This format would give everyone a 9-game schedule. Each team would only need to get one "Non-Conference" game. Going forward every year (or maybe two years) the top team from the Blue div. moves up to the Black div. and the bottom Black Div. moves down to the Blue Div. There you have it! Next problem?

[GoldandBlueBU]

Finally, something to discuss again. Yay! My 2 cents: This is really only a football problem and mainly because of the physicality of the sport. The gap between the haves and the have-nots will only continue to grow in football as the numbers continue to dwindle at the youth and HS levels. The solution could be applied to just football only but I believe the other sports would benefit as well. They should add 5 teams (Mac, Northwestern, Scholastica, Crown and Morris)There would be two divisions under the MIAC umbrella (Miac-Black and Miac-Blue) (Black: UST, SJU, Concordia, Bethel, Gustavus, STO, Auggie) (Blue: Hamline, Carleton, Mac, NW, Scholastica, Crown and Morris) Teams play within their own sub-division (6-games). They would cross over based on previous seasons finish for 2-games which would not be counted in sub-division standings. There would need to be a championship at the end of the season (possibly a "US Bank Day") Yes, I understand that these games would likely be onesided but it would give the blue/lower division a chance to still make the playoffs as the auto-bid would be on the line. It would not hurt the the #2 black/upper div. team from making the playoffs at-large (assuming they took care of business against the #2 blue). This format would give everyone a 9-game schedule. Each team would only need to get one "Non-Conference" game. Going forward every year (or maybe two years) the top team from the Blue div. moves up to the Black div. and the bottom Black Div. moves down to the Blue Div. There you have it! Next problem?

or maybe you skip the lower - upper championship since it'd be a waste of time, and just have the bottom black division swap places with the top blue division for the next season...I realize this would mess with schedules, but we'll put AO on sorting that out.

[MiacMan]

Finally, something to discuss again. Yay! My 2 cents: This is really only a football problem and mainly because of the physicality of the sport. The gap between the haves and the have-nots will only continue to grow in football as the numbers continue to dwindle at the youth and HS levels. The solution could be applied to just football only but I believe the other sports would benefit as well. They should add 5 teams (Mac, Northwestern, Scholastica, Crown and Morris)There would be two divisions under the MIAC umbrella (Miac-Black and Miac-Blue) (Black: UST, SJU, Concordia, Bethel, Gustavus, STO, Auggie) (Blue: Hamline, Carleton, Mac, NW, Scholastica, Crown and Morris) Teams play within their own sub-division (6-games). They would cross over based on previous seasons finish for 2-games which would not be counted in sub-division standings. There would need to be a championship at the end of the season (possibly a "US Bank Day") Yes, I understand that these games would likely be onesided but it would give the blue/lower division a chance to still make the playoffs as the auto-bid would be on the line. It would not hurt the the #2 black/upper div. team from making the playoffs at-large (assuming they took care of business against the #2 blue). This format would give everyone a 9-game schedule. Each team would only need to get one "Non-Conference" game. Going forward every year (or maybe two years) the top team from the Blue div. moves up to the Black div. and the bottom Black Div. moves down to the Blue Div. There you have it! Next problem?

or maybe you skip the lower - upper championship since it'd be a waste of time, and just have the bottom black division swap places with the top blue division for the next season...I realize this would mess with schedules, but we'll put AO on sorting that out.

Yes, the annual swapping of 1st-Blue and last-Black places is in my plan/suggestion. The championship day serves not only to help fill the schedule but to keep the interest of the lower division teams. You do believe in Miracles? ala Lake Placid 1980?

[hazzben]

I hope UST does not leave the MIAC, but I pose this question from a purely hypothetical stand point.

If they do get kicked out of the MIAC, would UST make a transition into the D2 NSIC with one of their 16 members, Augustana, leaving to go D1 now? It seems like it would not take long for them to rise to the top of the NSIC if they are able to give out scholarships, given their facilities, location, academics.

Or does a transition into a different D3 conference (MWC? ARC to make an even 10 members?) make more sense for them?

USF is the poster child for the difficulty of such a transition. USF was dominating NAIA (with Carroll as their UWW to USF's Mount) for a decade. They played UND in a non-con game right before they jumped to D2 and beat them soundly. UND's coach straight up admitted they got handled and that USF had better athletes across the board.

Fast forward, USF is a good, not great NSIC school. Why? They lost all their built in advantages. They had a prestige school and location compared to the rest of the GPAC. In the NAIA, where rules weren't enforced with vigor, they could out scholarship the competition. In D2, those advantages were gone, and on equal footing with other schools, they found the competition a lot steeper.

UST to D2 isn't a sexy landing spot for them. But whether they went D2 or D1, they lose the baked in advantages that have allowed them to prosper and dominate in the MIAC.

D1 landing spot >> Institutional cache is diminished. More importantly, they can't use financial aid packages to out recruit other institutions. Either they aren't offering scholarships and will get stomped by the NDSU's of the world. Or they are offering scholarships, but they can only offer the same amount as other teams. Gone are the days of wanting a big D1 transfer, and making sure they have an aid package that's just superior to every other MIAC offer and getting the guy.

UST as a D1 entity also hurts the Gophers. They will eat into their walk on program in a potentially sizeable fashion. UoM can get a kid to walk on from Mounds View (live example here) or Wayzata or EP because he doesn't want to go play in Fargo, Brookings, etc. Walk on at the U, and stay in the cities is a nice selling point. D1 UST as an option means the kid gets to play D1 ball and stay in a major metro area.

[hazzben]

I'm with coach J - UST, while they don't fit the profile of the rest of the MIAC, has without a doubt raised the bar for the rest of the league.   I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that all of BU's playoff runs have come after UST became good.

Also, so if UST gets the boot, SJU becomes the big bad bully...in 15 years, does the bottom of the conference get sick of losing to them, and conspire to throw them out?  I don't like the precedent...

That's not accurate at all. Bethel started gaining traction in the mid-90's. Won the conference outright  in 2000. Playoffs in 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006, 2007. 2006 was a team primed for a run, but lost Porta in the season finale against SJU. The next year in 2007 they made a run to the Semi's.

I'd argue, if UST doesn't get Caruso, Bethel's actually more likely to have had more playoff appearances and a few more deep runs.

Having said that, I agree that UST's rise has also forced SJU and Bethel and Concordia to get better. The major difference IMO, between teams like Bethel and Concordia and GAC and teams like Carleton, Hamline, etc. is that the Bethel minded schools saw the challenge and got after it. Other schools appear to have seen the challenge and whined about it.

[wm4]

From the Reusse piece, I'm curious what the March 28th MIAC coaches meeting was all about.  "An attempt to pass a resolution favoring St. Thomas' continued presence in the MIAC failed."  Seems very odd to have resolutions of that nature come up at a coaches meeting.  I'm not surprised to hear it was a heated meeting however. 

[faunch]

From the Reusse piece, I'm curious what the March 28th MIAC coaches meeting was all about.  "An attempt to pass a resolution favoring St. Thomas' continued presence in the MIAC failed."  Seems very odd to have resolutions of that nature come up at a coaches meeting.  I'm not surprised to hear it was a heated meeting however.

Would love to see video, hear a recording or at least read a transcript of that meeting.
Wonder if the Caruso and Killian families still are on each other Christmas card lists? Rachael Caruso is so nice I'm sure she still sends then a card. 

[hazzben]

Channeling my inner Art76 with the novel below  Some thoughts I've been digesting for a few months now since I heard rumors of this impending vote.

1. I'm with Coach J, I think UST has some baked in advantages, but I'd rather see them stay. It's that much more satisfying when you slay Goliath, even if there are years when you take your lumps. Losing UST will diminish the MIAC from a competitive standpoint in just about every sport.

2. Caruso is learning an important life lesson: Karma is a bitch. He's been less than sporting in some of these games against the also-rans of the MIAC. But it came to head in the 97-0 St. Olaf thrashing. It was personal, Caruso was pissed at losing his OC and several members of his staff to Olaf and there was bad blood. His response was to pile it on, at St. Olaf, in front of a lot of proud Olaf alumni and leadership. St. Olaf's president was pissed (and you can argue rightfully so). It had a totally different feel than how SJU beat CSS. Caruso was twisting the knife.

The other element is some of the recruiting shenanigans he's pulled off. Over-recruiting, then sending kids a letter Aug 1 saying, "thanks for signing up to play for UST, your services won't be needed until after camp closes and classes begin. Enjoy your August, see you in September if you want, either way enjoy being a Tommie." Those kids were often prized recruits for other schools in the league. It was dirty pool. Coaches hear from recruits about why they pick a school. -- when you recruit a kid, with an aid package you know another school can't match, not because you want a kid, but because you want to stash him as your 5th string RB and make sure he doesn't start for Hamline for 4 years, you don't make any friends in the league.

Caruso made things cut throat. To his credit, it led to a lot of success and I can't fault him using every asset at his disposal. But I'm also not going to lose sleep crying for him when the masses rise up and march him to the figurative guillotine. Caruso says "let them eat cake" Olaf and Hamline respond, "Fine, but you aren't invited to the party anymore  "

3. This is about Enrollment & Pride, not just Football: Football is the most visible example of the disparity in these athletic departments (basketball to a lesser extent). We are football rubes, so we see this through a football lens. The issue is dominance across almost all sports. There are a few outliers here and there, but UST is the bully in the MIAC. Caruso's arrival added the most visible sport, Football, to the mix. That mattered because of optics and because of economics.

Enrollment: Enrollment is down across the board for small colleges. For schools that are enrollment driven like Bethel, Hamline, Augsburg, Concordia, St. Mary's, St. Kate's, etc. it's a huge issue. As UST continues to grow and gobble up students, it's fewer students for these other institutions. Athletics plays a key roll in getting some of these students, especially male students. For some schools this is about financial viability, and enrollment is a zero sum game for expensive small colleges. It's not wrong of UST to grow and get as many students as they can. But this isn't entirely about sports (though that's a highly visible part of the equation). Some of these schools envision a D1 UST allowing them to win back students who are interested in a small college experience.

Optics (i.e. Pride): MAC, Carleton, & St. Olaf are not enrollment driven. They have huge endowments. And they have a lot of institutional pride. It's not just that UST is dominating (that's been going on since the mid-90's minus football), it's that UST is rubbing salt in the wound. 97-0 is the spark, and that's on Caruso. But the issue has been smoldering for a while. Olaf's President is without question the driving force behind this. I've got it on good authority, with confirmation, that Anderson is the one who called for a vote and is leading the charge.

4. This is the Key paragraph in the whole article:

Three MIAC sources said there is pressure being applied to Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus — the other competitive football programs — to support removing St. Thomas via threats that Augsburg, Hamline, St. Olaf and Carleton could drop out of MIAC football (as Macalester did years ago). This would leave five football schools in the MIAC without a full schedule to play.

We know Coach J (and I assume Bethel by extension) don't want to see UST ousted. I assume this means Concordia and Gustavus lean that way as well. SJU isn't listed because UST in the MIAC is great for them, and no amount of pressure moves SJU to vote for the ouster.

Those four schools threatening to leave is not insignificant. But where do they all land? There's only one open slot in the MWC. And Augsburg and Hamline aren't fits for the academic profile of that conference. My gut is no one really wants to leave the MIAC, they just want UST out.

How does the vote go down? Here's my internal straw poll:
YES: Hamline, Augsburg, Olaf, Carleton, St. Kates, St. Mary's, MAC (7 votes)
NO: UST, SJU, St. Ben's (assuming they vote with SJU)
SWING: Bethel, Concordia, GAC

Lutheran & Catholic politics galore here. Can Olaf and Augsburg influence GAC and Concordia??

If the vote fails, and schools bail the MIAC, who's left (especially for FB)?

UST, SJU, Bethel, Concordia, GAC ... ??

I think if it goes that route, the MIAC gobbles up CSS and UNWSP. My gut is Hamline and Augsburg have to stick around and come slinking back with their tales between their legs. They are the K-State/ISU to Texas/OU in the Big 12 drama a few years back. They may hate getting dominated, and would love to see them gone. But better to get your butt kicked in a conference than to have no conference at all.

[AO]

If you're really that focused on at-large bids, getting rid of St. Thomas could be helpful in many sports.   Every team can add wins in the non-conference schedule and subtract losses in the conference schedule.  You might be missing out on a regionally ranked win over St. Thomas but if the Tommies leave the division, another MIAC team might take their place in the regional rankings.

I'd be much more worried about the MIAC losing position in the all-important D3football.com conference power rankings.

Can you check with your connections - if Hamline, Carleton, and Olaf split, do UNWSP, CSS, and a third party (maybe UWS?) want to join the MIAC?

While I definitely want to play Bethel more often in Basketball and Football, I've never gotten the sense we want to join the MIAC.  There's a lot of parity in the UMAC in football and while we've mostly dominated Men's Hoops, we can get beat on any given night. 

As for the Black and Blue division idea, what if we just called the two divisions the MIAC and UMAC and kept both AQs.   

[UWO Titan 78]

Would roster limits help parity?

[GoldandBlueBU]

Channeling my inner Art76 with the novel below  Some thoughts I've been digesting for a few months now since I heard rumors of this impending vote.

1. I'm with Coach J, I think UST has some baked in advantages, but I'd rather see them stay. It's that much more satisfying when you slay Goliath, even if there are years when you take your lumps. Losing UST will diminish the MIAC from a competitive standpoint in just about every sport.

2. Caruso is learning an important life lesson: Karma is a bitch. He's been less than sporting in some of these games against the also-rans of the MIAC. But it came to head in the 97-0 St. Olaf thrashing. It was personal, Caruso was pissed at losing his OC and several members of his staff to Olaf and there was bad blood. His response was to pile it on, at St. Olaf, in front of a lot of proud Olaf alumni and leadership. St. Olaf's president was pissed (and you can argue rightfully so). It had a totally different feel than how SJU beat CSS. Caruso was twisting the knife.

The other element is some of the recruiting shenanigans he's pulled off. Over-recruiting, then sending kids a letter Aug 1 saying, "thanks for signing up to play for UST, your services won't be needed until after camp closes and classes begin. Enjoy your August, see you in September if you want, either way enjoy being a Tommie." Those kids were often prized recruits for other schools in the league. It was dirty pool. Coaches hear from recruits about why they pick a school. -- when you recruit a kid, with an aid package you know another school can't match, not because you want a kid, but because you want to stash him as your 5th string RB and make sure he doesn't start for Hamline for 4 years, you don't make any friends in the league.

Caruso made things cut throat. To his credit, it led to a lot of success and I can't fault him using every asset at his disposal. But I'm also not going to lose sleep crying for him when the masses rise up and march him to the figurative guillotine. Caruso says "let them eat cake" Olaf and Hamline respond, "Fine, but you aren't invited to the party anymore  "

3. This is about Enrollment & Pride, not just Football: Football is the most visible example of the disparity in these athletic departments (basketball to a lesser extent). We are football rubes, so we see this through a football lens. The issue is dominance across almost all sports. There are a few outliers here and there, but UST is the bully in the MIAC. Caruso's arrival added the most visible sport, Football, to the mix. That mattered because of optics and because of economics.

Enrollment: Enrollment is down across the board for small colleges. For schools that are enrollment driven like Bethel, Hamline, Augsburg, Concordia, St. Mary's, St. Kate's, etc. it's a huge issue. As UST continues to grow and gobble up students, it's fewer students for these other institutions. Athletics plays a key roll in getting some of these students, especially male students. For some schools this is about financial viability, and enrollment is a zero sum game for expensive small colleges. It's not wrong of UST to grow and get as many students as they can. But this isn't entirely about sports (though that's a highly visible part of the equation). Some of these schools envision a D1 UST allowing them to win back students who are interested in a small college experience.

Optics (i.e. Pride): MAC, Carleton, & St. Olaf are not enrollment driven. They have huge endowments. And they have a lot of institutional pride. It's not just that UST is dominating (that's been going on since the mid-90's minus football), it's that UST is rubbing salt in the wound. 97-0 is the spark, and that's on Caruso. But the issue has been smoldering for a while. Olaf's President is without question the driving force behind this. I've got it on good authority, with confirmation, that Anderson is the one who called for a vote and is leading the charge.

4. This is the Key paragraph in the whole article:

Three MIAC sources said there is pressure being applied to Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus — the other competitive football programs — to support removing St. Thomas via threats that Augsburg, Hamline, St. Olaf and Carleton could drop out of MIAC football (as Macalester did years ago). This would leave five football schools in the MIAC without a full schedule to play.

We know Coach J (and I assume Bethel by extension) don't want to see UST ousted. I assume this means Concordia and Gustavus lean that way as well. SJU isn't listed because UST in the MIAC is great for them, and no amount of pressure moves SJU to vote for the ouster.

Those four schools threatening to leave is not insignificant. But where do they all land? There's only one open slot in the MWC. And Augsburg and Hamline aren't fits for the academic profile of that conference. My gut is no one really wants to leave the MIAC, they just want UST out.

How does the vote go down? Here's my internal straw poll:
YES: Hamline, Augsburg, Olaf, Carleton, St. Kates, St. Mary's, MAC (7 votes)
NO: UST, SJU, St. Ben's (assuming they vote with SJU)
SWING: Bethel, Concordia, GAC

Lutheran & Catholic politics galore here. Can Olaf and Augsburg influence GAC and Concordia??

If the vote fails, and schools bail the MIAC, who's left (especially for FB)?

UST, SJU, Bethel, Concordia, GAC ... ??

I think if it goes that route, the MIAC gobbles up CSS and UNWSP. My gut is Hamline and Augsburg have to stick around and come slinking back with their tales between their legs. They are the K-State/ISU to Texas/OU in the Big 12 drama a few years back. They may hate getting dominated, and would love to see them gone. But better to get your butt kicked in a conference than to have no conference at all.

Well said - particularly on the entirety of your point #2.  It will be interesting to watch it all play out.

I'm with coach J - UST, while they don't fit the profile of the rest of the MIAC, has without a doubt raised the bar for the rest of the league.   I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that all of BU's playoff runs have come after UST became good.

Also, so if UST gets the boot, SJU becomes the big bad bully...in 15 years, does the bottom of the conference get sick of losing to them, and conspire to throw them out?  I don't like the precedent...

That's not accurate at all. Bethel started gaining traction in the mid-90's. Won the conference outright  in 2000. Playoffs in 2000, 2001, 2003, 2006, 2007. 2006 was a team primed for a run, but lost Porta in the season finale against SJU. The next year in 2007 they made a run to the Semi's.

Meh - Difference of opinion.  I think having two games per year (and 3 when Cord was good) to really be forced to prep hard for, and be seriously challenged in, in a "if you lose, you won't make the playoffs" way, makes a significant difference in fortifying a team for when the actual tournament rolls around.