FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[faunch]

Channeling my inner Art76 with the novel below  Some thoughts I've been digesting for a few months now since I heard rumors of this impending vote.

Not going to quote your entire novella...just want to say you did a great job surmising most everything i believe about this situation. Great work...it should be published on StarTribune as an addendum to the original story!

[OzJohnnie]

My sources have told me that all 13 schools get an equal vote (9-football schools, Mac, SMU, St. Ben's and St.Kates). They need 9 votes to ouster UST. My straw poll says: Mac, STO, Carl, Aug, Ham, vote to ouster for sure. UST, SJU, Bethel, St. Bens, vote for sure to keep. The ousters need all four of the remaining votes (GAC, Conc, St. Mary's and St. Kates) to get UST out. I think it will be difficult for St. Kate's to vote against UST. They share a number of entities/programs not to mention both being Mpls/St. Paul Archdiocesan schools. It's a fight that I don't believe St. Kate's would want to take on.

Interesting.  It's a split over the purpose of the MIAC.  The flash point may be UST bully tactics on the field and in recruiting, but it seems the issue is whether the MIAC should be a national power conference or a Minnesota nice liberal arts conference.  While for a long time there was room for both, the recent national arms race, particularly in football, and UST's (and SJU in football to a large extent) full throttled jump into that national race has opened up some real cracks in the conference mission coherence.

Maybe the bully ball, particularly in recruiting, could be causing the whole thing to come to a head.  I could understand that if I were a fellow institution.  I would not be happy at all to be UST's patsy as they pursue national sporting prominence.

It seems to me that UST has to make a choice: play nice (institutional relationship-wise) in the MIAC or find a new home.  I imagine that getting stomped on the field is something that people can take (as long as it doesn't seem personal and petty), but getting student enrolment undercut too boot is a slight too far.

I don't see UST giving up their national ambitions.  And I don't think they can achieve their national ambitions without the off-field recruiting competitiveness.  So I don't see this resolving itself well.  I can see UST saying, "We're not changing. Take it or leave it."  And I can see the five protesting schools saying, "Well, we won't take it.  We ain't your b*******s."  They could easily leave the MIAC.  And I think that disruption could swing the 'No' votes to a 'Yes'.  What comes out of the rubble of an MIAC disintegration?  Sure, it's sucks to have UST leave but that better than the whole thing falling apart.

I can't wait to hear how this has gone.

[wm4]

Regardless of the outcome of the vote, take the over in UST conference games next year 

[miac952]

Ive seen one with my own eyes. My friend's son was offered one. It isn't a full scholarship but it was 90 something percent tuition for showing "great leadership" in high school and that St Thomas wants leaders like you. It was very suspect.

Sounds like you may be referring to the Dease scholarship program. It's geared towards those in local communities where kids have shown leadership attributes in extra-curricular activities. The vast majority of those scholarships end up with non sport students and coaches have zero influence or say over the process. Furthermore it is also largely need and academic based. But go ahead and throw out baseless claims on the account of a single friends son. Makes sense. Since your an expert on the subject you would also know that scholarships in Division III are reported to governing bodies and they have to be consistent between athletes and non-athletes. Universities have been dinged for this in the past.

On a separate note no one seems to have a clear understanding of next steps other than the fact their is a meeting coming up with the Presidents. The lack of clarity is probably due to the unprecedented nature of booting out a founding member for being too good I suppose. Is it a majority vote, a unanimous vote? What are they voting on: outright removal, specific sports? Does Mac get to vote given their traitorous status? St Kate's and St Bens and St Johns all count as a whole vote? The devil is in the details and it has me quite curious. I've heard Augsburg or Gustavus as a tiebreaker? That would lend credence to majority, but then again I'm not sure anyone knows the process.

My sources have told me that all 13 schools get an equal vote (9-football schools, Mac, SMU, St. Ben's and St.Kates). They need 9 votes to ouster UST. My straw poll says: Mac, STO, Carl, Aug, Ham, vote to ouster for sure. UST, SJU, Bethel, St. Bens, vote for sure to keep. The ousters need all four of the remaining votes (GAC, Conc, St. Mary's and St. Kates) to get UST out. I think it will be difficult for St. Kate's to vote against UST. They share a number of entities/programs not to mention both being Mpls/St. Paul Archdiocesan schools. It's a fight that I don't believe St. Kate's would want to take on.

Thanks MiacMan. You and HazzBen have provided some good thoughts and tied together a few loose ends on the subject.

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

my two cents worth--- there wont be enough votes to change the bylaws so the presidents of the MIAC institutions avoid the humiliation of an ouster vote over sheer pettiness by a clique of its members.  However, the Machiavellian maneuver of using Reusse as a propaganda machine works as UST leaves the MIAC in 2-3 years (tops). And that will tarnish the MIAC's reputation in all sports.

[miac952]

Oz, interesting to get opposing opinions from rivals. Yours conflicts a bit from some that have strongly expressed dismay at from the SJU football alumni base today on Twitter. A few going as far to say SJU should threaten to walk with UST. Concordia alums have also been vocal critics as well of the this trajectory.

What I am curious of from SJU is what about the slippery slope? The team was steps way from beating MHB last year. Basketball, minus the NCAA tourney is strong too. Think of this season for hoops and football with UST in it. It would have been quite boring. The rivalries lost. That to me would be the biggest loss in all of this.

[OzJohnnie]

Actually, I think UST survives this vote but the MIAC does not.  We've got two more years of MIAC competition left and then there is a complete overhaul of upper-midwest sporting conference affiliations.  One MIAC school may drop out now, but the others will soon follow.  And conferences will re-organise into sporting v lifestyle affiliations.  I wouldn't be surprised to see schools work on something as ambitious as a three way MWC/MIAC/ARC re-org along those lines.

This isn't just a UST/MIAC thing, either.  D3 is under threat not just from sports, but from the sustainability of the college education business model in general.  Over 43 million people owe over $1.5 trillion in student loan debt.  That's 30% higher than all the credit card debt in the USA.  It's 10% of every dollar borrowed in the USA.  That's a debt ratio which is unsustainable.  The competition for enrolments, particularly for students who can actually pay for themselves will soon be extreme.  And if the federal government makes institutions liable for paying back defaulted loans as has been talked about lately, then watch it come to a head really quick.

No, this goes far beyond on-field scores or behaviours (even if that is the flash point).  This is more fundamental question about whether the MIAC institutions help each other to thrive and survive in a challenging business (and one about to undergo a fundamental over-supply crisis) or if the less advantaged schools can be exploited to sustain the ambitions of the more advantaged.  It's a serious question.

[miac952]

my two cents worth--- there wont be enough votes to change the bylaws so the presidents of the MIAC institutions avoid the humiliation of an ouster vote over sheer pettiness by a clique of its members.  However, the Machiavellian maneuver of using Reusse as a propaganda machine works as UST leaves the MIAC in 2-3 years (tops). And that will tarnish the MIAC's reputation in all sports.

agree on this. The writing is on the wall at this point. The votes may not be there now, but planning should be in place on a long term exit strategy. It's hard to foresee hanging around too long as long as the weasel on the hill in Northfield is focusing his efforts on ousting you.

[BDB]

And here I thought the WIAC was goofy.
Hey, time to kick Whitewater out of the conference!

[miac952]

Actually, I think UST survives this vote but the MIAC does not.  We've got two more years of MIAC competition left and then there is a complete overhaul of upper-midwest sporting conference affiliations.  One MIAC school may drop out now, but the others will soon follow.  And conferences will re-organise into sporting v lifestyle affiliations.  I wouldn't be surprised to see schools work on something as ambitious as a three way MWC/MIAC/ARC re-org along those lines.

This isn't just a UST/MIAC thing, either.  D3 is under threat not just from sports, but from the sustainability of the college education business model in general.  Over 43 million people owe over $1.5 trillion in student loan debt.  That's 30% higher than all the credit card debt in the USA.  It's 10% of every dollar borrowed in the USA.  That's a debt ratio which is unsustainable.  The competition for enrolments, particularly for students who can actually pay for themselves will soon be extreme.  And if the federal government makes institutions liable for paying back defaulted loans as has been talked about lately, then watch it come to a head really quick.

No, this goes far beyond on-field scores or behaviours (even if that is the flash point).  This is more fundamental question about whether the MIAC institutions help each other to thrive and survive in a challenging business (and one about to undergo a fundamental over-supply crisis) or if the less advantaged schools can be exploited to sustain the ambitions of the more advantaged.  It's a serious question.

I've wondered if DIII would splinter into two sub-sets at some point. I didn't want to put too much emphasis on this single instance but it makes me wonder about a snowball of re-alignment like we saw in D1 5-10 years ago.

What if Mac, Carleton, St Olaf joined Grinnell and Luther. Meanwhile Central, Wartburg, etc join SJU, UST, Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus. The fallacy in this is each conference would only have 1 auto-bid under the current structure. Maybe the former group goes the way of the NESCAC and says no thanks to a bid. By voting the way they are trending they should be relegated to that anyways.

[OzJohnnie]

Oz, interesting to get opposing opinions from rivals. Yours conflicts a bit from some that have strongly expressed dismay at from the SJU football alumni base today on Twitter. A few going as far to say SJU should threaten to walk with UST. Concordia alums have also been vocal critics as well of the this trajectory.

What I am curious of from SJU is what about the slippery slope? The team was steps way from beating MHB last year. Basketball, minus the NCAA tourney is strong too. Think of this season for hoops and football with UST in it. It would have been quite boring. The rivalries lost. That to me would be the biggest loss in all of this.

I'm a free thinker, man.

I've come to believe this is a question over the MIAC's purpose.  What may have started as a sporting affiliation has, due to the evolution in the college business model, become a threat to institutional survival if we're talking about enrolment poaching.

This conversation has reminded me of this scene from the movie Rush.  UST is Niki Lauda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjyIrLKgbbA

[miac952]

And here I thought the WIAC was goofy.
Hey, time to kick Whitewater out of the conference!

BDB, I think Stout should be on the WIAC chopping block, after all they beat the vaunted UST that was pushed out of the MIAC over its "dominance." 

[faunch]

Actually, I think UST survives this vote but the MIAC does not.  We've got two more years of MIAC competition left and then there is a complete overhaul of upper-midwest sporting conference affiliations.  One MIAC school may drop out now, but the others will soon follow.  And conferences will re-organise into sporting v lifestyle affiliations.  I wouldn't be surprised to see schools work on something as ambitious as a three way MWC/MIAC/ARC re-org along those lines.

This isn't just a UST/MIAC thing, either.  D3 is under threat not just from sports, but from the sustainability of the college education business model in general.  Over 43 million people owe over $1.5 trillion in student loan debt.  That's 30% higher than all the credit card debt in the USA.  It's 10% of every dollar borrowed in the USA.  That's a debt ratio which is unsustainable.  The competition for enrolments, particularly for students who can actually pay for themselves will soon be extreme.  And if the federal government makes institutions liable for paying back defaulted loans as has been talked about lately, then watch it come to a head really quick.

No, this goes far beyond on-field scores or behaviours (even if that is the flash point).  This is more fundamental question about whether the MIAC institutions help each other to thrive and survive in a challenging business (and one about to undergo a fundamental over-supply crisis) or if the less advantaged schools can be exploited to sustain the ambitions of the more advantaged.  It's a serious question.

I've wondered if DIII would splinter into two sub-sets at some point. I didn't want to put too much emphasis on this single instance but it makes me wonder about a snowball of re-alignment like we saw in D1 5-10 years ago.

What if Mac, Carleton, St Olaf joined Grinnell and Luther. Meanwhile Central, Wartburg, etc join SJU, UST, Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus. The fallacy in this is each conference would only have 1 auto-bid under the current structure. Maybe the former group goes the way of the NESCAC and says no thanks to a bid. By voting the way they are trending they should be relegated to that anyways.

What would be the transportation costs of that??

[miac952]

Oz, interesting to get opposing opinions from rivals. Yours conflicts a bit from some that have strongly expressed dismay at from the SJU football alumni base today on Twitter. A few going as far to say SJU should threaten to walk with UST. Concordia alums have also been vocal critics as well of the this trajectory.

What I am curious of from SJU is what about the slippery slope? The team was steps way from beating MHB last year. Basketball, minus the NCAA tourney is strong too. Think of this season for hoops and football with UST in it. It would have been quite boring. The rivalries lost. That to me would be the biggest loss in all of this.

I'm a free thinker, man.

I've come to believe this is a question over the MIAC's purpose.  What may have started as a sporting affiliation has, due to the evolution in the college business model, become a threat to institutional survival if we're talking about enrolment poaching.

This conversation has reminded me of this scene from the movie Rush.  UST is Niki Lauda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjyIrLKgbbA

Deep thoughts Oz. I've thought for a while it was a matter of if, not when
DIII's landscape might change. I didn't anticipate it might be so soon though. As is the case with the D1 shift football is the kingmaker and will drive any alignment changes.

Interesting times

[miac952]

Actually, I think UST survives this vote but the MIAC does not.  We've got two more years of MIAC competition left and then there is a complete overhaul of upper-midwest sporting conference affiliations.  One MIAC school may drop out now, but the others will soon follow.  And conferences will re-organise into sporting v lifestyle affiliations.  I wouldn't be surprised to see schools work on something as ambitious as a three way MWC/MIAC/ARC re-org along those lines.

This isn't just a UST/MIAC thing, either.  D3 is under threat not just from sports, but from the sustainability of the college education business model in general.  Over 43 million people owe over $1.5 trillion in student loan debt.  That's 30% higher than all the credit card debt in the USA.  It's 10% of every dollar borrowed in the USA.  That's a debt ratio which is unsustainable.  The competition for enrolments, particularly for students who can actually pay for themselves will soon be extreme.  And if the federal government makes institutions liable for paying back defaulted loans as has been talked about lately, then watch it come to a head really quick.

No, this goes far beyond on-field scores or behaviours (even if that is the flash point).  This is more fundamental question about whether the MIAC institutions help each other to thrive and survive in a challenging business (and one about to undergo a fundamental over-supply crisis) or if the less advantaged schools can be exploited to sustain the ambitions of the more advantaged.  It's a serious question.

I've wondered if DIII would splinter into two sub-sets at some point. I didn't want to put too much emphasis on this single instance but it makes me wonder about a snowball of re-alignment like we saw in D1 5-10 years ago.

What if Mac, Carleton, St Olaf joined Grinnell and Luther. Meanwhile Central, Wartburg, etc join SJU, UST, Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus. The fallacy in this is each conference would only have 1 auto-bid under the current structure. Maybe the former group goes the way of the NESCAC and says no thanks to a bid. By voting the way they are trending they should be relegated to that anyways.

What would be the transportation costs of that??

Probably substantial to D3 schools, and likely what has been a major inhibitor to any of this happening to date. Especially if you are Concordia or someone far removed like that.