FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[BDB]

In reality the value of a winning football team is to the alumni and interested parties. To the students it's a 4 or 5 Saturday afternoons that they may or may not attend.
If a college is losing students to other schools they better improve something other than their gridiron squad.

[OzJohnnie]

In reality the value of a winning football team is to the alumni and interested parties. To the students it's a 4 or 5 Saturday afternoons that they may or may not attend.
If a college is losing students to other schools they better improve something other than their gridiron squad.

Yes, absolutely.  It's why I reckon the MIAC is headed for a reckoning.  Maybe not this vote, but soon.

We've all been focused on UST using the MIAC as a feeding ground for its national ambitions based on sporting success, but the same is true for Carleton and Mac for years.  They have been very happy to think of the MIAC as the cushion for their ambitions based on academic reputation.  The difference is enrolment poaching (hazzben's second point on his epic summary post).  Carleton and Mac never (to my knowledge, anyways) used shady grant tactics to lure in good students and then leave them on the wayside in the home economics classes.  The current sporting scenario seems more exploitive of the MIAC partners.

(Just to be clear, I'm not taking one side or the other.  I'm just hashing out the argument to better understand it.  If you want to know my position, I say UST stays.  Yes, their enrolment is too big and their institutional ambitions are wrong.  Yes, they bully their vulnerable institutional colleagues on and off the field.  But Tommies suck.  And I enjoy watching them lose despite their advantages and bad neighbourliness.)

[Ron Boerger]

I've wondered if DIII would splinter into two sub-sets at some point. I didn't want to put too much emphasis on this single instance but it makes me wonder about a snowball of re-alignment like we saw in D1 5-10 years ago.

What if Mac, Carleton, St Olaf joined Grinnell and Luther. Meanwhile Central, Wartburg, etc join SJU, UST, Bethel, Concordia, Gustavus. The fallacy in this is each conference would only have 1 auto-bid under the current structure. Maybe the former group goes the way of the NESCAC and says no thanks to a bid. By voting the way they are trending they should be relegated to that anyways.

If memory serves, there was a serious movement to split D3 into the haves and havenots (or serious and not-so-serious) about a decade ago.

[PurpleReign]

As a Tommie faithful, I think it is time for St. Thomas to move on to bigger and better things.  The only thing that keeps me interested is the rivalry with St. Johns and the occasional challenge from Bethel.  I am so sick of the constant blow out games against the majority of the MIAC schools; specifically in football.  And, following football recruiting, this incoming Tommie class is just going to make things worse.  It would appear that Glen Caruso knows what's coming and has started recruiting against the NSIC - this incoming class is very impressive and clearly beyond what is required to compete against the MIAC.

[sjusection105]

2. Caruso is learning an important life lesson: Karma is a bitch. He's been less than sporting in some of these games against the also-rans of the MIAC. But it came to head in the 97-0 St. Olaf thrashing. It was personal, Caruso was pissed at losing his OC and several members of his staff to Olaf and there was bad blood. His response was to pile it on, at St. Olaf, in front of a lot of proud Olaf alumni and leadership. St. Olaf's president was pissed (and you can argue rightfully so). It had a totally different feel than how SJU beat CSS. Caruso was twisting the knife.

The other element is some of the recruiting shenanigans he's pulled off. Over-recruiting, then sending kids a letter Aug 1 saying, "thanks for signing up to play for UST, your services won't be needed until after camp closes and classes begin. Enjoy your August, see you in September if you want, either way enjoy being a Tommie." Those kids were often prized recruits for other schools in the league. It was dirty pool. Coaches hear from recruits about why they pick a school. -- when you recruit a kid, with an aid package you know another school can't match, not because you want a kid, but because you want to stash him as your 5th string RB and make sure he doesn't start for Hamline for 4 years, you don't make any friends in the league.

Caruso made things cut throat. To his credit, it led to a lot of success and I can't fault him using every asset at his disposal. But I'm also not going to lose sleep crying for him when the masses rise up and march him to the figurative guillotine. Caruso says "let them eat cake" Olaf and Hamline respond, "Fine, but you aren't invited to the party anymore  "

I've always been under the impression that a manager encourages his/her employees to advance their careers and improve their position in the world. The more you help and encourage employees the more you improve yourself. Apparently I was all wrong on this. 

[MiacMan]

LATEST INTEL NEWS FLASH: (different Source than my normal, but is usually fundamentally accurate) UST goes into the meeting and will be allowed to state their case. UST contingent tells MIAC Presidents their long term expansion plans. Basically saying they are going to grow bigger and the enrollment gap is only going to get larger. UST administration is totally expecting to be voted out and seem to be fine with it. This has been brewing for a while and it seems UST has been preparing (Hiring of Phil Esten among other things).

[PurpleReign]

LATEST INTEL NEWS FLASH: (different Source than my normal, but is usually fundamentally accurate) UST goes into the meeting and will be allowed to state their case. UST contingent tells MIAC Presidents their long term expansion plans. Basically saying they are going to grow bigger and the enrollment gap is only going to get larger. UST administration is totally expecting to be voted out and seem to be fine with it. This has been brewing for a while and it seems UST has been preparing (Hiring of Phil Esten among other things).

The hiring of Phil Esten is very telling. Why would the associate athletic director at Penn State take a DIII job unless he is charged with the challenge of moving UST forward in the food chain?  UST will be moving on and has outgrown the MIAC

[Smitty Oom]

Where are the UST faithful going to migrate for their posting/bantering pleasures after the Toms have moved on to "greener pastures"?

[PurpleReign]

Where are the UST faithful going to migrate for their posting/bantering pleasures after the Toms have moved on to "greener pastures"?

I will come back here to see how the little people are doing.

[OzJohnnie]

LATEST INTEL NEWS FLASH: (different Source than my normal, but is usually fundamentally accurate) UST goes into the meeting and will be allowed to state their case. UST contingent tells MIAC Presidents their long term expansion plans. Basically saying they are going to grow bigger and the enrollment gap is only going to get larger. UST administration is totally expecting to be voted out and seem to be fine with it. This has been brewing for a while and it seems UST has been preparing (Hiring of Phil Esten among other things).

If UST is so proactive, then why wait to be kicked out?  Why not leave gracefully without the bad blood?  It's seems a bit unnecessary to help feed a situation full of discontent and effectively say, "We're going to s**t all over you, just saying, so kick us out if you want."  Why not recognise your ambitions no longer align with your conference colleagues and say goodbye like a gentleman?

Seems a bit churlish to me, to be honest.

[PurpleReign]

LATEST INTEL NEWS FLASH: (different Source than my normal, but is usually fundamentally accurate) UST goes into the meeting and will be allowed to state their case. UST contingent tells MIAC Presidents their long term expansion plans. Basically saying they are going to grow bigger and the enrollment gap is only going to get larger. UST administration is totally expecting to be voted out and seem to be fine with it. This has been brewing for a while and it seems UST has been preparing (Hiring of Phil Esten among other things).

If UST is so proactive, then why wait to be kicked out?  Why not leave gracefully without the bad blood?  It's seems a bit unnecessary to help feed a situation full of discontent and effectively say, "We're going to s**t all over you, just saying, so kick us out if you want."  Why not recognise your ambitions no longer align with your conference colleagues and say goodbye like a gentleman?

Seems a bit churlish to me, to be honest.

Is the concept of preparing for the future lost on you?  You post these rugby? cricket? lacrosse? or whatever it is and think we are interested.  This is a "football" board and not a "who gives a **** about that sport" board.  Get a clue asshol* and stop posting.

[OzJohnnie]

LATEST INTEL NEWS FLASH: (different Source than my normal, but is usually fundamentally accurate) UST goes into the meeting and will be allowed to state their case. UST contingent tells MIAC Presidents their long term expansion plans. Basically saying they are going to grow bigger and the enrollment gap is only going to get larger. UST administration is totally expecting to be voted out and seem to be fine with it. This has been brewing for a while and it seems UST has been preparing (Hiring of Phil Esten among other things).

If UST is so proactive, then why wait to be kicked out?  Why not leave gracefully without the bad blood?  It's seems a bit unnecessary to help feed a situation full of discontent and effectively say, "We're going to s**t all over you, just saying, so kick us out if you want."  Why not recognise your ambitions no longer align with your conference colleagues and say goodbye like a gentleman?

Seems a bit churlish to me, to be honest.

Is the concept of preparing for the future lost on you?  You post these rugby? cricket? lacrosse? or whatever it is and think we are interested.  This is a "football" board and not a "who gives a **** about that sport" board.  Get a clue asshol* and stop posting.

Yeah, churlish.  Good word.

[OzJohnnie]

Is the concept of preparing for the future lost on you?  You post these rugby? cricket? lacrosse? or whatever it is and think we are interested.  This is a "football" board and not a "who gives a **** about that sport" board.  Get a clue asshol* and stop posting.

Let me ask you a question, PR.  Was English Comprehension 101 a challenge for you?  Surely it was, otherwise you would know that your foam-speckled raging exactly supports the point I made.  I'm sure the UST administration serve their condescension with less froth, but I wouldn't be surprised so see them holding out the same cup.

[Texas Ole]

I have been very disappointed with many people within the St. Olaf administration and athletic department for many years.  If St. Olaf is the leading voice based solely on a few scores I would be extremely disappointed.

Competitive balance has been an issue within the conference for many years.  With St. Thomas it cannot be just an enrollment issue.  There are smaller D1 schools.  I would also argue that a few scores shouldn't also be the only issue.  St. Olaf has had some good teams that have won big.  We've also had our fair share of dumpster fire teams.  Some of the reasons being discussed I think hide the bigger issues.

The first has to be the use of grad students.  I know they cannot play in the MIAC, but it has long been a point of contention for the different institutions.  There are a few that would love to be able to use graduate students while others will never allow it.  Next is the student profile.  Do the athletes have a similar academic profile to general student body?  Do the financial aid packages for athletes mirror those of the general student body?  There is obviously a little play with some of these as each student needs to considered on an individual basis.  These issues have been discussed over the years by the various MIAC institutions.  While I don't follow UST and some of the other schools closely it sounds like there have been a few Gopher rejects end up on the UST roster.  I also believe at one point there was a discussion about a relationship between UST and some of the professional teams that was questioned.  Finally I think you have to look at the goals of each institution.

I've heard from friends that there has been a desire for St. Olaf to leave the MIAC for years with the Midwest Conference being the destination.  Transportation costs have long been a factor in staying with the MIAC.  I don't think joining the Midwest Conference is the best option as St. Olaf would be the big fish in that pond based on enrollment.  St. Olaf would also have to find a new home for sports that are not sponsored by the Midwest Conference.  I am wondering if St. Olaf and Carleton had opportunities to leave the MIAC forcing the rest of the league to make a decision.  Was there discussion of a new conference that would have left certain schools searching for a new conference?  What would that have done to the AQ status?  I think you also have to look at Mac's role in this issue.  It seems like they are the immediate replacement if UST leaves.  Why?  I know they were a football school years ago, but they left.  I am not sure I trust them.  I also wonder if there aren't some other conference issues at play with UST.  Surely we aren't going to kick a school for a dominating in a few sports or for having a large enrollment.

I believe the MIAC should have split years ago.  I think St. Olaf, Carleton, and Mac should've looked to start a new conference with a few other like minded schools.  Let those wanting to focus more on athletics and letting grad students pray form a different new conference.  I would have especially liked to have seen UST and SJU try to move up to either D2 or even D1.  I know that creates plenty of other issues, but I think they could make it work.

[PurpleReign]

Is the concept of preparing for the future lost on you?  You post these rugby? cricket? lacrosse? or whatever it is and think we are interested.  This is a "football" board and not a "who gives a **** about that sport" board.  Get a clue asshol* and stop posting.

Let me ask you a question, PR.  Was English Comprehension 101 a challenge for you?  Surely it was, otherwise you would know that your foam-speckled raging exactly supports the point I made.  I'm sure the UST administration serve their condescension with less froth, but I wouldn't be surprised so see them holding out the same cup.

Our cup runneth over with MIAC championships - with all honesty, has gotten very boring.