FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[OzJohnnie]

You say that now Oz, but the precedent is set. SJU will be next, because it's not like the Johnnies have a history of playing pattycake with Carleton and Hamline either. Might as well jump on the conference call with the NSIC.

No, I understand.  And I think UST should stay.  Not just for the MIAC but for UST.  The fact is, however, that many of UST's colleagues feel slighted by the treatment they get over football both on and off the field.  Now we give UST a lot of crap here because it's fun, but it seems that some institutions feel that the fun is actually at their expense.  UST needs to decide whether they want to take their colleagues' concerns seriously and demonstrate some understanding or not.

If the issue were only getting throttled on the field then I would be far less sympathetic to the other schools' complaints, but it goes beyond that.  It goes to they way the throttling is administered and also to the way UST over recruits, denying other schools good talent.  UST is free to say, "You're nuts!  Plus all is fair in love, war and football."  But if they do then don't expect the vote to go well.

UST needs to decide if they want to stay or not.  I'm not sure this vote will be good because UST clearly wants to outgrow the MIAC.  And the MIAC clearly want UST to do it on someone else's dime.  I'm sympathetic to both positions.  But they are largely irreconcilable as presented on the boards.  So it will be interesting to see the vote and the fallout to find what the real state of play is.

[OzJohnnie]

https://www.tommiemedia.com/news/miac-schools-want-to-expel-st-thomas/

[OzJohnnie]

I nearly forgot.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY_yK6J1no

[OldAuggie]

I am having a hard time seeing how this vote passes.  I am going to guess all of the Catholic schools will vote for keeping St. Thomas.  That in itself is the votes to keep St. Thomas.  I realize that might be assuming a ton.  I also have to think there are 1 or 2 other schools that are in favor of keeping St. Thomas especially with Coach Johnson's comments.

I have to wonder if there have been discussions about multiple schools leaving the conference including possibly starting a new conference.  I keep thinking about hockey and football.  How many schools would have to leave to lose the AQ status?

I don't know about football but the NCAA D3 hockey AQ rule states that any conference with at least the same 7 members (or more) competing for 2 years will keep the AQ. St John's, St.Olaf, Hamline, Augsburg, St.Mary's, Concordia, Bethel and Gustavus makes 8 remaining MIAC hockey programs should UST get the boot. If UST stays and other schools leave then yes the AQ would go bye-bye if the league drops below 7 hockey playing programs. Exiting schools could form a new league and bring in CSS who has a nice hockey program in the NCHA and would be a great addition to a new D3 hockey league.

[art76]

Given all the Doctors of Jurisprudence as alums of all these schools if the vote goes for Tomexit (hat tip sfury) then the MIAC better have their legal ducks in a row I'm thinking.

Thanx for the chuckle in the midst of this mess, Oz. +K

[carletonknights]

You say that now Oz, but the precedent is set. SJU will be next, because it's not like the Johnnies have a history of playing pattycake with Carleton and Hamline either. Might as well jump on the conference call with the NSIC.

I don't think this is true.  SJU and UST are two completely different institutions.  From my perspective, one seems to more closely resemble their MIAC brethren and the other has vestigial structures which allows us to clearly see how it used to fit in with the others, but has since evolved into something different.  Not quite a brother, but a cousin with a very recent common ancestor if that makes any sense.  If you believe that this move is based only on football success, than sure SJU should be worried, but I don't believe that is the case.

Everyone seems to agree that the major push to amend the by-laws is being lead by St. Olaf, but to what extent are the "bottom dwellers" participating? I know that Carleton is quite happy to be in the MIAC and despite pressure in the past from alumni, has remained committed to the conference.  It would be odd if they were suddenly threatening to leave.  So are Macalester, Carleton, and Hamline actively campaigning for a change to the by-laws?  Or have they agreed to vote with St. Olaf?  Or are we assuming that since they're the "bottom dwellers" they're in favor of this amendment without really knowing that to be the truth?

[Gregory Sager]

I am having a hard time seeing how this vote passes.  I am going to guess all of the Catholic schools will vote for keeping St. Thomas.  That in itself is the votes to keep St. Thomas.  I realize that might be assuming a ton.  I also have to think there are 1 or 2 other schools that are in favor of keeping St. Thomas especially with Coach Johnson's comments.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that a football coach decides school policy. What Coach Johnson of Bethel thinks and what the president of Bethel thinks could be two completely opposite things. And guess which one of the two will be at this upcoming MIAC meeting?

SJU might as well start packing their bags too. Punish success and reward Macalester for leaving. Cool conference philosophy. Really teaching your student-athletes important life lessons, like, if you're a loser, just create a coalition of losers to change 100 year old bylaws.

The coalition of losers is exactly why this vote should be opposed. If UST does get the boot then I hope SJU and others (but SJU in particular) don't wait for the kick but leave of their own accord. Perhaps just for football. Do a reverse Mac - leave because the others suck instead of your own suckiness.

OldAuggie is right. You guys are viewing this through the lens of football fandom. Some of you seem to think that the whole issue is oriented around how good a particular school's football team happens to be. That's not the case. Again, football is typically not the driver of school policy in D3, certainly not the way that it is in D1. Macalester is a classic example. That school has an endowment of 700 million dollars and an annual budget of 160 million. Do you really think that with those kinds of resources the school would suck at D3 football if the school's leadership put its mind to building a gridiron powerhouse? No. As OldAuggie said, Macalester doesn't want to play that game. Neither, for the most part, do most of the other MIAC schools. Their priorities lie elsewhere.

[USTBench]

You say that now Oz, but the precedent is set. SJU will be next, because it's not like the Johnnies have a history of playing pattycake with Carleton and Hamline either. Might as well jump on the conference call with the NSIC.

I don't think this is true.  SJU and UST are two completely different institutions.  From my perspective, one seems to more closely resemble their MIAC brethren and the other has vestigial structures which allows us to clearly see how it used to fit in with the others, but has since evolved into something different.  Not quite a brother, but a cousin with a very recent common ancestor if that makes any sense.  If you believe that this move is based only on football success, than sure SJU should be worried, but I don't believe that is the case.

Everyone seems to agree that the major push to amend the by-laws is being lead by St. Olaf, but to what extent are the "bottom dwellers" participating? I know that Carleton is quite happy to be in the MIAC and despite pressure in the past from alumni, has remained committed to the conference.  It would be odd if they were suddenly threatening to leave.  So are Macalester, Carleton, and Hamline actively campaigning for a change to the by-laws?  Or have they agreed to vote with St. Olaf?  Or are we assuming that since they're the "bottom dwellers" they're in favor of this amendment without really knowing that to be the truth?

You guys can keep telling yourselves that SJU/CSB is the kitschy little Catholic school in the woods, but they will absolutely pound everyone in nearly every sport if UST gets the boot, moves on to D2 or is forced to play an independent schedule. No other school, including UST has the drawing power of SJU. Football games in Target Field/Allianz stadium don't happen without SJU. SJU AVERAGES over 8,000 fans per home game, that would put them in the Top 25 of FCS D1 in football attendance.

So, whether UST and SJU are two very different schools with different philosophies or not, SJU's fans and alumni have made them big time. You don't see what SJU has ANYWHERE in D3, and I'm not just talking about football games against UST.

UST gets the honor of being the bad guy now, but its only a matter of time before the coalition of losers redirects their ire, and it's not going to be at Bethel.

[OzJohnnie]

UST gets the honor of being the bad guy now

[sjusection105]

https://www.tommiemedia.com/news/miac-schools-want-to-expel-st-thomas/

What would be a total dumpster fire would be a successful vote to expel UST, THEN another MIAC member school exits on their own to lets say, the Midwest Conference.

[bluestreak66]

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

[faunch]

You say that now Oz, but the precedent is set. SJU will be next, because it's not like the Johnnies have a history of playing pattycake with Carleton and Hamline either. Might as well jump on the conference call with the NSIC.

I don't think this is true.  SJU and UST are two completely different institutions.  From my perspective, one seems to more closely resemble their MIAC brethren and the other has vestigial structures which allows us to clearly see how it used to fit in with the others, but has since evolved into something different.  Not quite a brother, but a cousin with a very recent common ancestor if that makes any sense.  If you believe that this move is based only on football success, than sure SJU should be worried, but I don't believe that is the case.

Everyone seems to agree that the major push to amend the by-laws is being lead by St. Olaf, but to what extent are the "bottom dwellers" participating? I know that Carleton is quite happy to be in the MIAC and despite pressure in the past from alumni, has remained committed to the conference.  It would be odd if they were suddenly threatening to leave.  So are Macalester, Carleton, and Hamline actively campaigning for a change to the by-laws?  Or have they agreed to vote with St. Olaf?  Or are we assuming that since they're the "bottom dwellers" they're in favor of this amendment without really knowing that to be the truth?

You guys can keep telling yourselves that SJU/CSB is the kitschy little Catholic school in the woods, but they will absolutely pound everyone in nearly every sport if UST gets the boot, moves on to D2 or is forced to play an independent schedule. No other school, including UST has the drawing power of SJU. Football games in Target Field/Allianz stadium don't happen without SJU. SJU AVERAGES over 8,000 fans per home game, that would put them in the Top 25 of FCS D1 in football attendance.

So, whether UST and SJU are two very different schools with different philosophies or not, SJU's fans and alumni have made them big time. You don't see what SJU has ANYWHERE in D3, and I'm not just talking about football games against UST.

UST gets the honor of being the bad guy now, but its only a matter of time before the coalition of losers redirects their ire, and it's not going to be at Bethel.

Here we go talking about the attendance numbers again??? 
Does anybody believe that if U$T moved up to the FCS they would draw anything close to 10,000 a game? The one D1 program in the state struggles to average 30,000.

[USTBench]

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

Probably zero. I'm sure their bylaws limit their affiliation to Wisconsin public schools.

[Redtooth]

There are so many places to start when discussing the current state of affairs in the MIAC....I know way too much information on this situation....Let me start off by stating the origin of this matter was UST Football's dominance and a real demonization of Glenn Caruso as HC....The fact is, he has developed a nationally relevant, incredibly successful football program.  That coupled with Steve Fritz' wonderful vision as AD to excel as a total program....they invested and committed to building a Winning Department.  The bottom half of this league in the meantime has acted as though we are still in the 1970s, and then wondered why student athletes don't go to their schools.  Schools with billion dollar endowments that don't invest in athletics and then bitch when a competitor makes a different investment and commitment decision is the absolute definition of hypocrisy.

What the Presidents are now engaged in doing with the bylaws (modifying to create an Enrollment cap that would only impact one school) has been done under the cover of darkness amongst the like-minded schools....If successful, they will utilize the same strategy to eliminate any school that deviates from the clustering of mediocrity they so desire...SJU will be a next target, guaranteed!

Only good thing is most of what is being proposed is likely not supported legally and could be tied up in the courts.. Removing UST would not make the league stronger or better.

[USTBench]

You say that now Oz, but the precedent is set. SJU will be next, because it's not like the Johnnies have a history of playing pattycake with Carleton and Hamline either. Might as well jump on the conference call with the NSIC.

I don't think this is true.  SJU and UST are two completely different institutions.  From my perspective, one seems to more closely resemble their MIAC brethren and the other has vestigial structures which allows us to clearly see how it used to fit in with the others, but has since evolved into something different.  Not quite a brother, but a cousin with a very recent common ancestor if that makes any sense.  If you believe that this move is based only on football success, than sure SJU should be worried, but I don't believe that is the case.

Everyone seems to agree that the major push to amend the by-laws is being lead by St. Olaf, but to what extent are the "bottom dwellers" participating? I know that Carleton is quite happy to be in the MIAC and despite pressure in the past from alumni, has remained committed to the conference.  It would be odd if they were suddenly threatening to leave.  So are Macalester, Carleton, and Hamline actively campaigning for a change to the by-laws?  Or have they agreed to vote with St. Olaf?  Or are we assuming that since they're the "bottom dwellers" they're in favor of this amendment without really knowing that to be the truth?

You guys can keep telling yourselves that SJU/CSB is the kitschy little Catholic school in the woods, but they will absolutely pound everyone in nearly every sport if UST gets the boot, moves on to D2 or is forced to play an independent schedule. No other school, including UST has the drawing power of SJU. Football games in Target Field/Allianz stadium don't happen without SJU. SJU AVERAGES over 8,000 fans per home game, that would put them in the Top 25 of FCS D1 in football attendance.

So, whether UST and SJU are two very different schools with different philosophies or not, SJU's fans and alumni have made them big time. You don't see what SJU has ANYWHERE in D3, and I'm not just talking about football games against UST.

UST gets the honor of being the bad guy now, but its only a matter of time before the coalition of losers redirects their ire, and it's not going to be at Bethel.

Here we go talking about the attendance numbers again??? 
Does anybody believe that if U$T moved up to the FCS they would draw anything close to 10,000 a game? The one D1 program in the state struggles to average 30,000.

No. That was the whole point of what I wrote.