FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Texas Ole]

I am having a hard time seeing how this vote passes.  I am going to guess all of the Catholic schools will vote for keeping St. Thomas.  That in itself is the votes to keep St. Thomas.  I realize that might be assuming a ton.  I also have to think there are 1 or 2 other schools that are in favor of keeping St. Thomas especially with Coach Johnson's comments.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that a football coach decides school policy. What Coach Johnson of Bethel thinks and what the president of Bethel thinks could be two completely opposite things. And guess which one of the two will be at this upcoming MIAC meeting?

SJU might as well start packing their bags too. Punish success and reward Macalester for leaving. Cool conference philosophy. Really teaching your student-athletes important life lessons, like, if you're a loser, just create a coalition of losers to change 100 year old bylaws.

The coalition of losers is exactly why this vote should be opposed. If UST does get the boot then I hope SJU and others (but SJU in particular) don't wait for the kick but leave of their own accord. Perhaps just for football. Do a reverse Mac - leave because the others suck instead of your own suckiness.

OldAuggie is right. You guys are viewing this through the lens of football fandom. Some of you seem to think that the whole issue is oriented around how good a particular school's football team happens to be. That's not the case. Again, football is typically not the driver of school policy in D3, certainly not the way that it is in D1. Macalester is a classic example. That school has an endowment of 700 million dollars and an annual budget of 160 million. Do you really think that with those kinds of resources the school would suck at D3 football if the school's leadership put its mind to building a gridiron powerhouse? No. As OldAuggie said, Macalester doesn't want to play that game. Neither, for the most part, do most of the other MIAC schools. Their priorities lie elsewhere.

My guess is the Bethel administration has talked with Coach Johnson.  I would imagine his input along with that of many other MIAC ADs and coaches and will be considered by presidents.  Not listening to your athletic department would be irresponsible. 

I am really beginning to think that if St. Olaf is truly not happy with 1 or 2 schools they need to leave.  I think there are other schools that would also like to leave, but this is just a measure to keep the MIAC together.  If this is truly the end of the MIAC then let it die.  As an alum I look forward to the Luther games more than I do several MIAC games. 

[BDB]

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

Probably zero. I'm sure their bylaws limit their affiliation to Wisconsin public schools.

Screw the bylaws. We'll trade you St. Norbert College for UST and throw in beer and cheese to be named later.

[MiacMan]

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

Probably zero. I'm sure their bylaws limit their affiliation to Wisconsin public schools.

Screw the bylaws. We'll trade you St. Norbert College for UST and throw in beer and cheese to be named later.

Keep SNC, but we'll take the beer and cheese! 

[sjusection105]

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

Probably zero. I'm sure their bylaws limit their affiliation to Wisconsin public schools.

Screw the bylaws. We'll trade you St. Norbert College for UST and throw in beer and cheese to be named later.

Haven't they already been traded and the Midwest Conference s looking for a team to be named later? Perhaps offering Lutefisk would convince St. Olaf to take the membership in the Midwest Conference......

[Gregory Sager]

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

Probably zero. I'm sure their bylaws limit their affiliation to Wisconsin public schools.

The WIAC does have affiliate members: Gustavus Adolphus, Winona State, and Hamline for gymnastics, and UW-Superior for both men's and women's hockey. Illinois Tech used to be an affiliate member for baseball, Lawrence for wrestling, and Finlandia for men's soccer. But, yeah, you have to be a branch campus of the University of Wisconsin to be a full member of the WIAC.

My guess is the Bethel administration has talked with Coach Johnson.  I would imagine his input along with that of many other MIAC ADs and coaches and will be considered by presidents. 

Perhaps, perhaps not. Undoubtedly, Bethel AD Bob Bjorklund has some input, and he might speak for the whole department. Or Bjorklund's input may came via reporting upstairs to whichever member of the president's cabinet is over athletics. All I'm saying is that: a) a head football coach is pretty far down the organizational chart of a D3 school's administration; b) football coaches aren't supposed to carry any more weight in these matter than coaches of other sports; c) football doesn't call the shots at the schools that are members of this level of the NCAA; and d) you can't assume that Steve Johnson speaks on behalf of his school in this matter. In fact, his quote from the Star-Tribune piece:

"I'm not an expert on this whole thing," Johnson said. "All I know is we take it as a challenge to play the Tommies, and when we have a chance to beat them as we did last season, it's great for our program.

"I guess I see both sides. St. Thomas brings a lot of prestige nationally in many athletics to our conference. It also doesn't really fit the rest of the conference, the way it has exploded as an institution, but for me ... I want to have the Tommies in the league."

... makes it pretty clear that he's speaking for himself, not for his school as a whole.

If UST does get the boot, what do you think the chances are that the WIAC extends an offer? They've had scheduling issues for years, so that might make some sense

Probably zero. I'm sure their bylaws limit their affiliation to Wisconsin public schools.

Screw the bylaws. We'll trade you St. Norbert College for UST and throw in beer and cheese to be named later.

How can you trade SNC? It's not even in your league, BDB. You'll have to trade UWW or UWSP or UWO instead.

[BDB]

Yeah. But it was the only college in Wiscy that has "Saint" in their name and a football team that I could think of. And the Concordia in Wisconsin, well that would get confusing with 2 of them. 

My joking about it is how this whole "Tomexit" force out appears to me from the outside looking in, kind of ridiculous. But what do I know.

[MUC57]

BDB

I'll trade you Wilmington for anybody - plus the beer and cheese! 

I have no comment on the other stuff!
Oh. By the way, Wilmington is Quakers.

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah. But it was the only college in Wiscy that has "Saint" in their name and a football team that I could think of. And the Concordia in Wisconsin, well that would get confusing with 2 of them. 

My joking about it is how this whole "Tomexit" force out appears to me from the outside looking in, kind of ridiculous. But what do I know.

For what it's worth, Brexit is about someone leaving a group voluntarily. This is more like a "Tomtoss" or something.

[OzJohnnie]

There are so many places to start when discussing the current state of affairs in the MIAC....I know way too much information on this situation....Let me start off by stating the origin of this matter was UST Football's dominance and a real demonization of Glenn Caruso as HC....The fact is, he has developed a nationally relevant, incredibly successful football program.  That coupled with Steve Fritz' wonderful vision as AD to excel as a total program....they invested and committed to building a Winning Department.  The bottom half of this league in the meantime has acted as though we are still in the 1970s, and then wondered why student athletes don't go to their schools.  Schools with billion dollar endowments that don't invest in athletics and then bitch when a competitor makes a different investment and commitment decision is the absolute definition of hypocrisy.

What the Presidents are now engaged in doing with the bylaws (modifying to create an Enrollment cap that would only impact one school) has been done under the cover of darkness amongst the like-minded schools....If successful, they will utilize the same strategy to eliminate any school that deviates from the clustering of mediocrity they so desire...SJU will be a next target, guaranteed!

Only good thing is most of what is being proposed is likely not supported legally and could be tied up in the courts.. Removing UST would not make the league stronger or better.

I'm in the stay camp. However, it occurs to me that at some point UST's growth ambitions could make it incompatible with the MIAC. For example, the UofM wouldn't fit, right?  So continuing on that track, either the MIAC or UST must modify their ambitions or there will definitely be a rift forced eventually.

So, can the MIAC's vision of the last 100 years, the small Minnesota liberal arts college, survive for the next 100?  I'd say it's unlikely.  Small colleges are under pressure unlike anything they have seen in the last 100 years with the development of what's often referred to as the "education bubble."  SJU has published blog pieces about the pressures on enrolment, that while enrolments have been largely steady applications are down.  In fact, the small college is expected to go through a very rough patch:



So, I think that if the schools limit themselves to the question of UST football behaviour (or sporting dominance in general) and don't ask the question of why UST is so aggressively pursing a path divergent from the traditional MIAC model, then the schools without a unique and very compelling national profile of one sort or another will be doing themselves a great disservice.  Because the Reaper threatens them all and he doesn't wear purple.

If on the other hand, the Tommie presentation is rebutted with "Tommies Suck!" then I'm fully on board and I say kick them out.

[miac952]

There are so many places to start when discussing the current state of affairs in the MIAC....I know way too much information on this situation....Let me start off by stating the origin of this matter was UST Football's dominance and a real demonization of Glenn Caruso as HC....The fact is, he has developed a nationally relevant, incredibly successful football program.  That coupled with Steve Fritz' wonderful vision as AD to excel as a total program....they invested and committed to building a Winning Department.  The bottom half of this league in the meantime has acted as though we are still in the 1970s, and then wondered why student athletes don't go to their schools.  Schools with billion dollar endowments that don't invest in athletics and then bitch when a competitor makes a different investment and commitment decision is the absolute definition of hypocrisy.

What the Presidents are now engaged in doing with the bylaws (modifying to create an Enrollment cap that would only impact one school) has been done under the cover of darkness amongst the like-minded schools....If successful, they will utilize the same strategy to eliminate any school that deviates from the clustering of mediocrity they so desire...SJU will be a next target, guaranteed!

Only good thing is most of what is being proposed is likely not supported legally and could be tied up in the courts.. Removing UST would not make the league stronger or better.

Red tooth, very interesting perspective, +k. If memory serves you had a college / athletic administration background at some point so it is helpful to hear this perspective.

From my distant view, there are a handful of schools that have committed to athletics in the MIAC. Maybe not to UST's level, but to a respectable level to acknowledge the existence of sports on campus and compete with other aspirational D3 schools. SJU /CSB is obviously there. Gustavus as well. And as I've noted I believe St Olaf is in that camp. I've shared why so believe that as mauseum the last couple of posts. I don't know enough about Concordia and haven't set foot on that campus in over a decade to make a judgement about them, other than the big scoreboard that got put up this past season looks beautiful. The rest of the schools however have to look introspectively. It's not a zero sum game, you can choose to pursue excellence in both, especially the two schools with endowments pushing towards $1 billion. Williams, Wash U, Johns Hopkins, and others have done that. St Thomas has made significant investments in engineering, science, and the arts the last half decade, all the while also pushing in athletics the five years prior.

[miac952]

Oz - I would say all the member colleges and universities are going through a transformative strategic plan. Who would have thought 20 years ago little St Mary's would have mini satellites all over the state providing one of the largest graduate education teaching programs, that have turned into a revenue cash cow for them. Hamline and Mitchell have merged law schools. Bethel and Augsburg have flipped to universities setting on a path to provide distinctive and revenue generating graduate programs. Is UST's ambition too significant? Undergrad enrollment has been held flat, admission standards have gone up quite significantly. That is why I would ask why is this being pursued now, unless the driver is football? If you had a problem with UST the time to voice the discontent was 5,10,15 years ago. I keep hearing its about more than football. If that was the case Dr Anderson from St Olaf and his contingent missed the boat and have been sleeping at the wheel for some time. Maybe times were good 10-12 years ago with Meidt captaining the Ole ship and rolling up 50+ points a game. But now, the shoe is on the other foot and he can't handle it.

[OzJohnnie]

Oz - I would say all the member colleges and universities are going through a transformative strategic plan. Who would have thought 20 years ago little St Mary's would have mini satellites all over the state providing one of the largest graduate education teaching programs, that have turned into a revenue cash cow for them. Hamline and Mitchell have merged law schools. Bethel and Augsburg have flipped to universities setting on a path to provide distinctive and revenue generating graduate programs. Is UST's ambition too significant? Undergrad enrollment has been held flat, admission standards have gone up quite significantly. That is why I would ask why is this being pursued now, unless the driver is football? If you had a problem with UST the time to voice the discontent was 5,10,15 years ago. I keep hearing its about more than football. If that was the case Dr Anderson from St Olaf and his contingent missed the boat and have been sleeping at the wheel for some time. Maybe times were good 10-12 years ago with Meidt captaining the Ole ship and rolling up 50+ points a game. But now, the shoe is on the other foot and he can't handle it.

I don't think Caruso hides his lack of respect for other MIAC programs very well, particularly the cellar dwellers.  Perhaps all those other things weren't an issue until football became an abusive experience (from the perspective of the abused) rather than just an annual butt kicking.  I think you would find (as I guess from 14,000 miles away) that the complaints go beyond "We don't like UST doing so well" and are more along the lines of "We don't like the spirit in which they play."

After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

[USTBench]

You're right Oz, they don't have to put up with it Oz. The MWC needs a new member I hear. I'm sure CSS or Northwestern would be happy to take their place.

[OzJohnnie]

You're right Oz, they don't have to put up with it Oz. The MWC needs a new member I hear. I'm sure CSS or Northwestern would be happy to take their place.

Well, if UST also fails to recognise the complaints from fellow institutions then I don't think it will be STO joining the MWC.

[miac952]

Oz - I would say all the member colleges and universities are going through a transformative strategic plan. Who would have thought 20 years ago little St Mary's would have mini satellites all over the state providing one of the largest graduate education teaching programs, that have turned into a revenue cash cow for them. Hamline and Mitchell have merged law schools. Bethel and Augsburg have flipped to universities setting on a path to provide distinctive and revenue generating graduate programs. Is UST's ambition too significant? Undergrad enrollment has been held flat, admission standards have gone up quite significantly. That is why I would ask why is this being pursued now, unless the driver is football? If you had a problem with UST the time to voice the discontent was 5,10,15 years ago. I keep hearing its about more than football. If that was the case Dr Anderson from St Olaf and his contingent missed the boat and have been sleeping at the wheel for some time. Maybe times were good 10-12 years ago with Meidt captaining the Ole ship and rolling up 50+ points a game. But now, the shoe is on the other foot and he can't handle it.

I don't think Caruso hides his lack of respect for other MIAC programs very well, particularly the cellar dwellers.  Perhaps all those other things weren't an issue until football became an abusive experience (from the perspective of the abused) rather than just an annual butt kicking.  I think you would find (as I guess from 14,000 miles away) that the complaints go beyond "We don't like UST doing so well" and are more along the lines of "We don't like the spirit in which they play."

After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

I'd argue Caruso has matured a bit, but that is largely beside the point, and probably an argument that could go on in perpetuity.

To your point, if it is football, or more specifically a football coach, as I suspect, flipping the conference membership on its head seems particularly crazy. We are talking about DIII here. It is quite hypocritical as well since the charge is led by the Oles President. He had no issues with his squad, the Oles rolling 70 and 80 point scores up against Augsburg, Hamline, Macalester, and Carleton recently with Meidt running the show under his employment. He has supposedly swindled those institutions into his corner too. How soon they forget.