FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[miac952]

They should charge admission to the April 18th meeting. All proceeds can go to the "coalition of the losers" (copyright USTBench), to fund big bad athletics. Problem solved.

I would pay $ to see some of the rumored fireworks we are hearing of from prior meetings.

That's my anniversary. Sounds like a great date night plan. I'll bring the popcorn.

They could stream it too. SJU is really good at charging for that 

[jamtod]

They should charge admission to the April 18th meeting. All proceeds can go to the "coalition of the losers" (copyright USTBench), to fund big bad athletics. Problem solved.

I would pay $ to see some of the rumored fireworks we are hearing of from prior meetings.

That's my anniversary. Sounds like a great date night plan. I'll bring the popcorn.

They could stream it too. SJU is really good at charging for that 

Hopefully they get right down to business at this meeting and don't dance around the elephant in the room.

I'd hate to see Bethel be forced to leave the MIAC too.

[hazzben]

It sounds like the MIAC as we know it is done one way or the other. Either UST is voted out or several schools are taking their balls and going home. (we've got posters with sources from schools on both side of the aisle that agree the stage is set for some sort of shake up).

If UST is out, this seems like a pretty clean process for the MIAC (UST options are more complicated). MAC returns as a FB participant, the league continues forward.

The bigger question ... if UST survives the vote, now what happens with the disgruntled MIAC schools??

People have thrown out the MWC as this panacea landing spot for all these schools. They would be a fit for Carleton, MAC (already playing football here), and St. Olaf. But do we know the MWC is looking to add two more schools for football and 3 more schools for all sports?

More importantly, at first glance, Hamline and Augsburg don't appear to be nearly the fit the other schools would be.

I'm not sure I've heard any evidence that suggests all these schools actually have a landing spot.

On the flip side, MAC, Olaf, Hamline, Carleton, Augsburg opt out. Who does the MIAC (UST, Bethel, SJU, GAC, Concordia football-wise) go after?

Option 1: Super Conference - MIAC dogs go after ARC dogs Wartburg, Central, Dubuque, Simpson, and Coe. The best FB schools in the ARC have long hated their inability to get a Pool C bid and the lowish standing they hold nationally. The MIAC teams that love competition go after the best ARC teams. This would be a ridiculously competitive conference, and expand the recruiting footprint for all schools involved. Travel wouldn't be insane, though tough for the Cobbers. Hard to imagine the ARC schools being willing to blow up their conference. But look what's happening in the MIAC! Brave new world y'all

Option 2: Cannibalize the UMAC - Recruit St. Scholastica, Northwestern, MN-Morris, and UW-Superior. UWS doesn't have football, but they've got a solid bball team. More likely than Option 1, even if less sexy for the remaining MIAC members. Competitively, CSS & UNWSP wouldn't be any different than the schools leaving in terms of football, but I think given their commitment to athletics, they'd improve in short order. I've heard for a while that UNWSP has had it's eye on MIAC membership, but there's it's never been reciprocated

Option 3: ??

[Miacman4040]

After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

You know who else essentially said that Oz, circa 2008?  UST.  They hired Caruso, they committed to facilities, they raised a bunch of money, they engaged alumni, they busted their a** on the recruiting trail, and got results.  The rest of the MIAC?  Several schools snoozed thru the last 10 years, and here they are. 

If UST can do it, several other MIAC schools can do it too.

This is just plainly incorrect. To say that the reason the bottom dwellers are bad is because they don't try is misrepresenting the situation. A school like Carleton can never become an athletic powerhouse for many reasons. It is a very expensive school (60+ k) and they do not lower their academic standards (which are extremely high) to win a few more football games like St Thomas. It is much easier to turn around a struggling program at a premier University in the heart of the metro, with a massive student body, low academic requirements, large scholarships, and history of success than it is to recruit 80 quality players to a school like Carleton.

With that said, it has been this way for sometime, as schools like Carleton have accepted the structural disadvantages that will never make them a powerhouse. The change has apparently come after losing 80-0 every time they play St Thomas. You seem to want schools with no realistic chance to out-recruit UST to be happy getting embarrassed (behind the back trick play, anyone?) year in and year out. Clearly St Thomas does not share any institutional similarities or ambitions as the rest of the league and it is time for them to play schools with that same passion to emphasize the "athlete" in student athlete.

[USTBench]

After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

You know who else essentially said that Oz, circa 2008?  UST.  They hired Caruso, they committed to facilities, they raised a bunch of money, they engaged alumni, they busted their a** on the recruiting trail, and got results.  The rest of the MIAC?  Several schools snoozed thru the last 10 years, and here they are. 

If UST can do it, several other MIAC schools can do it too.

This is just plainly incorrect. To say that the reason the bottom dwellers are bad is because they don't try is misrepresenting the situation. A school like Carleton can never become an athletic powerhouse for many reasons. It is a very expensive school (60+ k) and they do not lower their academic standards (which are extremely high) to win a few more football games like St Thomas. It is much easier to turn around a struggling program at a premier University in the heart of the metro, with a massive student body, low academic requirements, large scholarships, and history of success than it is to recruit 80 quality players to a school like Carleton.

With that said, it has been this way for sometime, as schools like Carleton have accepted the structural disadvantages that will never make them a powerhouse. The change has apparently come after losing 80-0 every time they play St Thomas. You seem to want schools with no realistic chance to out-recruit UST to be happy getting embarrassed (behind the back trick play, anyone?) year in and year out. Clearly St Thomas does not share any institutional similarities or ambitions as the rest of the league and it is time for them to play schools with that same passion to emphasize the "athlete" in student athlete.

Ahem...Coalition of Losers

Also, drop football and start an E-sports and Quidditch team to make up your male enrollment. Seriously. Carleton has shown an ability to compete in football in the modern era of the MIAC (Ramler years) and has an $830 MILLION ENDOWMENT! If Carleton wants to give students scholarships, it can. If it wants to recruit nationally for football, it can. Carleton is choosing to not spend money on athletics, and that's certainly its prerogative, but in a blood sport like football, you're just setting your students up to fail, or worse, get hurt. Seriously, drop football. Focus on being competitive in basketball, volleyball, etc. There are plenty of ways to make up male enrollment and E-Sports is one of them.

[hazzben]

After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

You know who else essentially said that Oz, circa 2008?  UST.  They hired Caruso, they committed to facilities, they raised a bunch of money, they engaged alumni, they busted their a** on the recruiting trail, and got results.  The rest of the MIAC?  Several schools snoozed thru the last 10 years, and here they are. 

If UST can do it, several other MIAC schools can do it too.

This is just plainly incorrect. To say that the reason the bottom dwellers are bad is because they don't try is misrepresenting the situation. A school like Carleton can never become an athletic powerhouse for many reasons. It is a very expensive school (60+ k) and they do not lower their academic standards (which are extremely high) to win a few more football games like St Thomas. It is much easier to turn around a struggling program at a premier University in the heart of the metro, with a massive student body, low academic requirements, large scholarships, and history of success than it is to recruit 80 quality players to a school like Carleton.

With that said, it has been this way for sometime, as schools like Carleton have accepted the structural disadvantages that will never make them a powerhouse. The change has apparently come after losing 80-0 every time they play St Thomas. You seem to want schools with no realistic chance to out-recruit UST to be happy getting embarrassed (behind the back trick play, anyone?) year in and year out. Clearly St Thomas does not share any institutional similarities or ambitions as the rest of the league and it is time for them to play schools with that same passion to emphasize the "athlete" in student athlete.

I call BS on this.

Williams, Amherst, Johns Hopkins, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, Wash U. (Shoot, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Stanford, and others at the D1 level) Every school listed is on par with Carleton academically. They'd all absolutely dominate them in football. Their willingness to compete in football has done nothing to diminish their academic reputation. Somewhere along the way Carleton decided that being crappy at FB made a great academic institution look even more academic. They've got a member back on their board of trustee's who is once again pushing for them to drop football (not that it has legs mind you).

Bethel had/has much more significant structural disadvantages than Carleton. Prior to Coach J, Bethel won something like 4 games in the 80's ... four wins in nearly a decade. They were so bad that Coach J won MIAC coach of the year after going 3-6, because they were competitive and hey, it was 3-6 at Bethel, where no one can possibly win. Bethel has drastically less money to put into athletics and just to offer in aid to students. I can't tell you how many times we've had a kid begging for a better aid package. Bethel was their first choice, hands down, but when another school was offering $10-$20k a year more in aid they couldn't turn that down. And Bethel has found a way to compete in football, basketball, baseball, track, golf, etc. Where there's a will, there's a way. I've got a lot more sympathy for Hamline and Augsburg than I do MAC and Carleton. Olaf has invested in athletics infrastructure, but made a terrible HC hire that gutted their FB program. That was necessitated by the fact the impression was they school wasn't willing to put things on the table to make them competitive. Because down the road Carleton wears sucking at FB as an academic badge of distinction, so maybe we should suck too, because we want to be as academic as Carleton.

[miac952]

After all, UST has done extremely well in baseball and basketball for a long, long time.  No one threatened to kick them out for that success.  But I don't think there were any timeouts getting called at the end of a basketball blowout to try a buzzer-beating three-point attempt under game conditions.  I suspect it may be behaviour like that on the football field that has caused some in the conference to say, "We don't have to put up with this s***."

You know who else essentially said that Oz, circa 2008?  UST.  They hired Caruso, they committed to facilities, they raised a bunch of money, they engaged alumni, they busted their a** on the recruiting trail, and got results.  The rest of the MIAC?  Several schools snoozed thru the last 10 years, and here they are. 

If UST can do it, several other MIAC schools can do it too.

This is just plainly incorrect. To say that the reason the bottom dwellers are bad is because they don't try is misrepresenting the situation. A school like Carleton can never become an athletic powerhouse for many reasons. It is a very expensive school (60+ k) and they do not lower their academic standards (which are extremely high) to win a few more football games like St Thomas. It is much easier to turn around a struggling program at a premier University in the heart of the metro, with a massive student body, low academic requirements, large scholarships, and history of success than it is to recruit 80 quality players to a school like Carleton.

With that said, it has been this way for sometime, as schools like Carleton have accepted the structural disadvantages that will never make them a powerhouse. The change has apparently come after losing 80-0 every time they play St Thomas. You seem to want schools with no realistic chance to out-recruit UST to be happy getting embarrassed (behind the back trick play, anyone?) year in and year out. Clearly St Thomas does not share any institutional similarities or ambitions as the rest of the league and it is time for them to play schools with that same passion to emphasize the "athlete" in student athlete.

This doesn't have to be an "or" statement on athletics or academics. In the time UST has apparently risen to the level of getting kicked out, the academic standards have also gone up. Not Carleton, MAC, or STO, but now behind those schools in the upper 3rd.

I've said it before, but Williams, Johns Hopkins, Amherst, and Wash U seem to do fine juggling athletic and academic prowess. I would categorize their academic standards as "extremely high" as well.

It doesn't take much to bring about some basic competence. Becoming a powerhouse isn't what we are talking about here. Maybe a simple retaining wall where the river spills into the stadium, upping pay for some head and assistant coaches, and actually trying to keep them. Diverting funds that support Frolf and quidditch teams, the made up Harry Potter game, to go to real interscholastic athletics would help as well.

Heck, Carleton was 20 seconds away from a MIAC championship 9 or so years ago. UST and SJU both came back on them in the last seconds. They outplayed and should have beaten 2 NCAA tournament qualifiers. Since then they have run 3-4 coaches out of town, watched their stadium flood 3-4 times, and put funding behind a Quidditch team, while football has equipment issues left and right. Not hard to see where they have failed. When that stuff is happening and your sitting on a nearly $1 billion endowment, you have to look in the mirror first.

And spare me the institutional similarities or ambitions. What is institutionally similar between Carleton and Augsburg, or St Mary's and Macalester? They couldn't be more diametrically different. If institutional similarities and ambitions is our standard, the conference should have split 3-4 different ways two decades ago.

[Miacman4040]

Well it seems as if our disagreement is the crux of the split in the conference. This debate appears to be about whether schools should emphasize athletics or academics. By the way, I can't imagine there being enough votes to kick St Thomas out, and i do hope they stay. I am just surprised by the number of people who see no issue in a school winning 97-0 while blitzing and running deep routes up 90 on a school's homecoming. I agree that schools should want to be competitive and not run from a challenge, but I also feel absolutely no empathy for the evil empire on Summit Ave, especially their classless football staff. There is a reason the Tommies might get voted out and not the Johnnies, even though St Johns has historically been the powerhouse. I am fine letting St Thomas reap what they've apparently sown.

[jamtod]

Well it seems as if our disagreement is the crux of the split in the conference. This debate appears to be about whether schools should emphasize athletics or academics. By the way, I can't imagine there being enough votes to kick St Thomas out, and i do hope they stay. I am just surprised by the number of people who see no issue in a school winning 97-0 while blitzing and running deep routes up 90 on a school's homecoming. [citation needed]

I agree that schools should want to be competitive and not run from a challenge, but I also feel absolutely no empathy for the evil empire on Summit Ave, especially their classless football staff. There is a reason the Tommies might get voted out and not the Johnnies, even though St Johns has historically been the powerhouse. I am fine letting St Thomas reap what they've apparently sown.

When you state that a team with Carleton's top academic standing cannot compete athletically, you are going to get numerous counterexamples. I'm not even suggesting they should emphasize athletics. I don't care whether they do or not but if they wanted to be competitive, they could. They have chosen not to.

Also for the record, the behind the back 2-pt play was AWESOME and understanding the logic behind it was about the most complimentary thing anyone has said about Carleton football in 9 years.

[miac952]

Well it seems as if our disagreement is the crux of the split in the conference. This debate appears to be about whether schools should emphasize athletics or academics. By the way, I can't imagine there being enough votes to kick St Thomas out, and i do hope they stay. I am just surprised by the number of people who see no issue in a school winning 97-0 while blitzing and running deep routes up 90 on a school's homecoming. I agree that schools should want to be competitive and not run from a challenge, but I also feel absolutely no empathy for the evil empire on Summit Ave, especially their classless football staff. There is a reason the Tommies might get voted out and not the Johnnies, even though St Johns has historically been the powerhouse. I am fine letting St Thomas reap what they've apparently sown.

Three people basically had the exact same response in a row. It's not a question of athletics or academics. You can have your cake and eat it too, with some very basic support. Apparently that isn't resonating.

The lemming holding the office of President at Carleton is following the guy looking down on him from the hill across the river. I am picturing Anderson in his office with binoculars laughing his ass off right now as the sheep line up across the river.

*The Oles put up 85 points on Carleton in 2007, but that was ok?

*The Oles dumped $10 million into a hockey palace, but that's ok.

*The Oles hired a D1 athletic director and two D1 coaches. Ok as well?

*The Oles filled their football staff with big, bad UST coaches. ok too?

I would start to question your Prez's critical thinking skills. He is getting severely taken advantage of by the rival on the hill.

[Miacman4040]

You never responded to my point other than to shift blame to someone else. Are you okay with beating a team 97-0? Do you think this is good for the student athletes on the other side?

[Smitty Oom]

As frustrated as I am with the Coalition of Losers (trademark pending), I think the writing is on the wall and it's probably not much of a surprise to anyone. UST doesn't bring in an associate AD from a Big 10 school if it plans on staying (alum or not). I think when this is all said and done UST will probably announce a plan of action that will allow it to stay in the MIAC for the next year or two while it finds a home, possibly outside of Division III.

I know from watching NDSU/SDSU's then UND/USD's transitions that this sort of move works so much better with a partner, and unfortunately, I don't know that SJU (UST's rival and a natural travel partner) are ready or willing to make that leap. Of course, if what I've gleaned is true, SJU may not have a choice but to find a new home should the Coalition of Losers have their way.

If the UMAC and MIAC could get together and have a meeting of the minds, it might make sense to have a few members switch places, but from the outside looking in, it seems only Northwestern (possibly St. Scholastica, but it appears they'd have to make an investment in athletics) might be okay fits for the MIAC. But switching 2 schools for 4 schools would leave the MIAC only 7 for football, so that wouldn't work, and it looks like the Coalition of Losers is more interested in forcing UST out than changing conference affiliations.

The other Division III option is for UST (and, who are we kidding, SJU eventually) to play an independent schedule in football, and see if the Coalition of Losers will let UST remain an affiliate member for other sports, but this sounds like it's probably not a viable option long-term either.

I think with UST's new AD, who has experience bringing D1 hockey to Penn State, UST might explore leaving for the NSIC/WCHA. Unfortunately, the NSIC is already at 16 member institutions split into two divisions, and I highly doubt SJU would be willing to make that jump with UST. In my dream scenario, UST and SJU wouldn't have to go DII,  and could join the Pioneer League in football (non-scholarship with Drake, Butler, Valpo, etc.), WCHA in hockey and Summit League for all other sports because, believe it or not, their facilities are just fine for the Summit, and geographically it makes the most sense.

What I think is likely to happen, is UST is going to double down on its athletic investment, raise a ton of money for hockey and try to find a home in the NSIC in the next few years. Whatever happens, UST is going to have a VERY painful transition unless it can get someone to make the jump with them.

So NSIC is 16 teams as of now, but Augustana (Sioux Falls) has announced they will be making a jump to D1, so they will need a new member to maintain their current layout, with a north and south division, each consisting of 8 teams. They could move around travel partners and make it work so UST and CSP travel together instead of matching CSP up with Winona State (maybe it is MSU-Mankato, don't want to look it up now).

And  in terms of making that transition to D1, unless I was interpreting posts incorrectly, posters on here have noted that it is a long haul, with necessary stops at D2 before the final destination of Division One athletics is reached.

Something to remember is that for a D3 or non-NCAA team to join D1, they first have to go through the three-year D2 membership process and then be an active D2 member for five years. Only then can they start the four-year D1 membership process. So it would take 12 years for St. Thomas to reach D1.

[Gregory Sager]

It sounds like the MIAC as we know it is done one way or the other. Either UST is voted out or several schools are taking their balls and going home. (we've got posters with sources from schools on both side of the aisle that agree the stage is set for some sort of shake up).

If UST is out, this seems like a pretty clean process for the MIAC (UST options are more complicated). MAC returns as a FB participant, the league continues forward.

The bigger question ... if UST survives the vote, now what happens with the disgruntled MIAC schools??

People have thrown out the MWC as this panacea landing spot for all these schools. They would be a fit for Carleton, MAC (already playing football here), and St. Olaf. But do we know the MWC is looking to add two more schools for football and 3 more schools for all sports?

I think that you're asking the wrong question. The proper question is: Do Carleton, Macalester, and St. Olaf each honestly contemplate a move to the MWC?

Look at these travel distances:

1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Beloit, WI (Beloit)	4 hrs, 40 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Mount Vernon, IA (Cornell)	4 hrs, 25 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Grinnell, IA (Grinnell)	4 hrs, 10 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Jacksonville, IL (Illinois C.)	7 hrs, 50 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Galesburg, IL (Knox)	6 hrs, 10 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Lake Forest, IL (Lake Forest)	5 hrs, 50 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Appleton, WI (Lawrence)	4 hrs, 15 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Monmouth, IL (Monmouth)	6 hrs, 10 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Ripon, WI (Ripon)	4 hrs, 10 mins
Northfield, MN to Beloit, WI (Beloit)	4 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Mount Vernon, IA (Cornell)	4 hrs
Northfield, MN to Grinnell, IA (Grinnell)	3 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Jacksonville, IL (Illinois C.)	7 hrs, 20 mins
Northfield, MN to Galesburg, IL (Knox)	5 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Lake Forest, IL (Lake Forest)	5 hrs, 50 mins
Northfield, MN to Appleton, WI (Lawrence)	4 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Monmouth, IL (Monmouth)	5 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Ripon, WI (Ripon)	4 hrs, 10 mins

Unless you're in the ASC or the SCAC, those distances are absurd.

(And, yes, I know that Macalester is an associate member of the MWC for football. But that's only one sport, and it's a sport that plays a comparatively small schedule, and then only on weekends.)

The dirty little secret of the MWC is that it's a league of elite small liberal-arts colleges that undermines its academic bona-fides to some degree by requiring intraconference travel that takes a big gouge out of campus presence and class time for its student-athletes. I can't imagine that the respective braintrusts of Carleton, Macalester, and St. Olaf would want any part of those ridiculous travel times for their student-athletes, ancient history within the MWC notwithstanding.

More importantly, at first glance, Hamline and Augsburg don't appear to be nearly the fit the other schools would be.

I'm not sure I've heard any evidence that suggests all these schools actually have a landing spot.

On the flip side, MAC, Olaf, Hamline, Carleton, Augsburg opt out. Who does the MIAC (UST, Bethel, SJU, GAC, Concordia football-wise) go after?

Option 1: Super Conference - MIAC dogs go after ARC dogs Wartburg, Central, Dubuque, Simpson, and Coe. The best FB schools in the ARC have long hated their inability to get a Pool C bid and the lowish standing they hold nationally. The MIAC teams that love competition go after the best ARC teams. This would be a ridiculously competitive conference, and expand the recruiting footprint for all schools involved. Travel wouldn't be insane, though tough for the Cobbers. Hard to imagine the ARC schools being willing to blow up their conference. But look what's happening in the MIAC! Brave new world y'all

You're guilty of football-only thinking here, hazzbeen. First of all, nobody's going to form a football super-conference unless it's absolutely necessary. The first and best option, the option that any responsible school president will pursue, is an all-sports conference. Second, what looks like a top-dog situation in the ARC vis-a-vis football isn't a top-dog situation for other sports. Nebraska Wesleyan won the national title in men's basketball in 2018 and has a long history of national excellence on this level in that sport. NWU also dominates the ARC in the women's running sports. Loras has been a D3 national power in men's soccer for two decades now and is getting to that point in men's basketball as well. Dubuque dominates the men's running sports and is the defending conference champ in baseball.

If push came to shove and the three academic powerhouses of the MIAC poisoned the well in terms of their relationships with their MIAC brethren, the ARC would be a much more logical landing spot for them than the MWC. After all, there's at least one peer institution there already (Luther), and travel wouldn't be terrible. The question then becomes whether the nine-member ARC would want to become a 12-member league.

[faunch]

They should charge admission to the April 18th meeting. All proceeds can go to the "coalition of the losers" (copyright USTBench), to fund big bad athletics. Problem solved.

I would pay $ to see some of the rumored fireworks we are hearing of from prior meetings.

Imagine if they brought the football coaches along to participate in the meeting? I'd pay $20.

[miac952]

You never responded to my point other than to shift blame to someone else. Are you okay with beating a team 97-0? Do you think this is good for the student athletes on the other side?

There is one group blaming someone here, and its not the "coalition of the winners." If I was 9 years removed from a MIAC championship run and getting drubbed, I wouldn't be stating how dare they and blaming someone else. I would be asking what the he$$ did I do wrong the last decade and how do I get back on track?

I'm not sure why I am answering your question, but I guess I will peel back the onion a bit. UST was traveling to St Olaf. A school who's President apparently voted against allowing more players to travel at one point. Thus going deeper into a bench and theoretically reducing blowouts. UST had 1 pass attempt just after halftime. From there out it was FB DIVE, ISO, etc. UST had 10 ball carriers in that game, including 2 BACKUP OFFENSIVE LINEMAN. Backup defensive players played nearly the entirety of the 2nd half. St Olaf's QB were 7-35 with 4 interceptions. Bill Belicheck and Tom Brady could not have rescued that incompetence.

Back to my question though. The 85 points that St Olaf scored on Carleton was alright? The passing in the 2nd half, the starters in through the 4th quarter? Why is Carleton following St Olaf in this?

"Prepare the child for the path and not the path for the child."

Replace child with student and tell me which side the "coalition of the losers" are on.