FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hazzben]

Hearing that Augsburg may cast the deciding votes might give some insight to the issue.  What if this is more about graduate students playing sports?  I believe the MIAC is one of 2 conferences to not allow graduate or non-traditional students to participate in intercollegiate athletics.  UST has a large graduate program.  There are others who have seen there graduate programs grow.  Augsburg is one of those.  I know the graduate student eligibility has been an issue in the past, and I think St. Olaf along with a few others have stated they would leave immediately if that passed.  I think that might be one of the main issues with this vote.

Now, this makes sense. It's a pertinent issue to the MIAC crisis that I'm surprised nobody has brought up before.

From everything I've heard/read publicly and in private, graduate students being eligible to play sports is not driving this. As it stands, grad students can't play and there isn't a push with any steam to change that. That's not a current source of inequity.

Augsburg could try to make nice with UST and get that ball rolling, but all that would accomplish is make it a new issue of contention going forward. That would seem to save UST, but blow up the MIAC. What does that accomplish for Augsburg?

I don't think going to the MWC makes any sense logistically for these schools (nor do I think there's a landing spot for all of them there). But me thinking it's stupid doesn't preclude President Anderson and these other institutions (and their leadership) from wanting to pursue it. It also doesn't mean they don't have support on campus. Just because this became public a week ago doesn't mean steps haven't been taken for a while. We've known of the tension from long before the announcement, and I knew about the brewing vote for several months. The passion point is "we all hate UST" and the selling point is "the MWC brings more prestige and institutional alignment." I think the alignment piece gets overblown, especially at the D3 level. But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

I know this. There are a ton of moving pieces and constituencies and agenda's in play here. I know a tiny bit about what may be going on at Bethel. I know the general feeling regarding UST in the MIAC, but that's dangerous to project onto specific individuals/institutions and how they'll act. I know far less about what's going on at UST, SJU, St. Olaf, MAC, etc. And I'm someone who lives here in the twin cities and follows the MIAC pretty closely.

[art76]

Just for giggles I just visited the UMAC, ARC, WIAC and MWC football boards here on D3 and the only folks talking about realignment is MWC, with no mention of booting the Tommies.

Makes me wonder if anyone with any presence in these upcoming MIAC meetings even knows we're alive. I suspect some coaches might be lurking, but one has to wonder if anything goes up the chain.

[Gregory Sager]

The fact is, my alma mater is no longer a peer institution to St. Olaf, Carleton or St. John's. These colleges have stayed much more committed to their liberal arts mission than St. Thomas. Defeating St. Olaf in football 97-0 isn't a good look, but at the end of the day, we just aren't in the same category anymore.

Stable athletic conferences are built on common identities. The Big Ten, for example, is an association of northern, research universities that legitimately see each other as peers. The Ivy League is a collection of elite, private universities that place emphasis on undergraduate education. This is in contrast to the MIAC, which consists of liberal arts colleges and St. Thomas

While that may have been how the B1G 10 was formed, from an athletics perspective that's not how it's held together now.  Rutgers and Maryland were not brought into the fold because of their research.  They were brought in because of tv markets, eyeballs and revenue streams.

That is not true. Well, the part about TV markets, eyeballs, and revenue streams is true. But your insinuation that the academic status of Rutgers and Maryland didn't matter isn't true. They measure up as peer institutions to the remainder of the Big Ten, and the leadership of the Big Ten emphasized that fact when extending the invitations to membership. Like all of the other Big Ten members -- with the notable and controversial exception of Nebraska -- Rutgers and Maryland are members of the Association of American Universities, which is the organization that contains all of the elite research universities in the U.S. (Nebraska was evicted from the AAU in 2011 because the organization ruled that the medical center at UNL didn't qualify as an on-campus medical school because it has a different president than the rest of UNL, and because the USDA-funded ag research money that UNL gets wasn't counted by the AAU towards the amount of federal research dollars that each institution needs to receive annually in order to be an AAU member.)

Trust me, AAU membership is a big thing among Big Ten members.

[Gregory Sager]

Hearing that Augsburg may cast the deciding votes might give some insight to the issue.  What if this is more about graduate students playing sports?  I believe the MIAC is one of 2 conferences to not allow graduate or non-traditional students to participate in intercollegiate athletics.  UST has a large graduate program.  There are others who have seen there graduate programs grow.  Augsburg is one of those.  I know the graduate student eligibility has been an issue in the past, and I think St. Olaf along with a few others have stated they would leave immediately if that passed.  I think that might be one of the main issues with this vote.

Now, this makes sense. It's a pertinent issue to the MIAC crisis that I'm surprised nobody has brought up before.

From everything I've heard/read publicly and in private, graduate students being eligible to play sports is not driving this. As it stands, grad students can't play and there isn't a push with any steam to change that. That's not a current source of inequity.

I didn't say that it was a driver, and neither did Texas Ole. He said that it was a distinction that set some MIAC schools apart from others -- which it is -- and that it is an issue that has been raised at MIAC meetings in the past -- which it has. He also said that it might play into Augsburg's decision-making, and that is a perfectly feasible conjecture.

Augsburg could try to make nice with UST and get that ball rolling, but all that would accomplish is make it a new issue of contention going forward. That would seem to save UST, but blow up the MIAC. What does that accomplish for Augsburg?

Who knows what sort of skullduggery is going on behind those closed doors?

I don't think going to the MWC makes any sense logistically for these schools (nor do I think there's a landing spot for all of them there). But me thinking it's stupid doesn't preclude President Anderson and these other institutions (and their leadership) from wanting to pursue it. It also doesn't mean they don't have support on campus. Just because this became public a week ago doesn't mean steps haven't been taken for a while. We've known of the tension from long before the announcement, and I knew about the brewing vote for several months. The passion point is "we all hate UST" and the selling point is "the MWC brings more prestige and institutional alignment." I think the alignment piece gets overblown, especially at the D3 level. But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

I certainly understand the lure of the MWC's academic cachet. What I'm saying is that the very thing that makes the MWC a draw for the MIAC's three academically elite schools also makes it toxic. It may enhance the look of the academic status of those three schools, but it undercuts the reality of their academic status by forcing all of their student-athletes to spend a considerable amount of time off campus and out of class. Consider the fact that the very thing that we're talking about here -- missed class time -- is why St. Norbert just handed back its MWC membership card. And SNC wasn't even close to being the geographic outlier to the rest of the MWC that St. Olaf would be.

St. Olaf's president may very well be pushing this. But I know how college faculties work. I can almost guarantee that St. Olaf's faculty would be howling mad if the administration passed a new policy that required St. Olaf students to miss that much class time.

[jamtod]

Any indications on what the proposed enrollment cap would be set at?
Current UST enrollment is around 6,200.
The next largest is St Catherine's at 3,177, but that's women only. Likewise, St John's and St Ben's enrollment (just under 2k each) is only men/women.
If there was some kind of adjustment to account for those non-coed schools, St Kate's should be getting the boot before (or along with) St Thomas. That would only make sense if enrollment was the key factor in the change in bylaws.

[OldAuggie]

Regarding Big Ten institutions academic status Gregory beat me to it and I am glad he did but I will add that not only is AAU membership a common denominator but all of the schools are Land Grant Research Universities except the University of Iowa as Iowa State is the land grant school in Iowa. The Big Ten schools do all have lots of eyes and true that the conference grabbed Rutgers and Maryland because of the east coast TV viewership but they also met the other criteria. They are great schools.

A friend of mine once said when Nebraska entered the Big Ten the conference GPA dropped. For the same reason The University of Oklahoma will never be a member of the Big Ten. No AAU membership.

Last year the Big Ten Network wrote a check for $51 Million to each school. That is a yearly payment and it has been going up.

[jknezek]

St. Olaf's president may very well be pushing this. But I know how college faculties work. I can almost guarantee that St. Olaf's faculty would be howling mad if the administration passed a new policy that required St. Olaf students to miss that much class time.

I get that time away from campus is an issue, but the SAA makes it work. And those colleges are generally thought of as higher tier academic institutions. Pulling out the two TX schools, which are football affiliates only, Hendrix is 7 hours from Sewanee, 8.5 from Centre, 9 from Ogelthorpe in ATL traffic. Their only relatively short road trip is Rhodes at 3 hours. And it's not just one school. Centre is, arguably, worse off than Hendrix. Closest is Sewanee at 4.5 hours. Sure there is a somewhat tight core of Ogelthorpe and Berry and BSC and Sewanee, but then the next cluster is Milsaps to Rhodes or Rhodes to Hendrix, and Hendrix to Milsaps is a long way.

Those clusters are really nowhere near each other either. Compact is great. W&L is darn near the center of the ODAC and I don't think they have a conference trip more than 3 hours. So while they probably fit better in the SAA, I know why they stay, and completely support them staying, in the ODAC. But the SAA does show it can be done if you want to.

[jamtod]

St. Olaf's president may very well be pushing this. But I know how college faculties work. I can almost guarantee that St. Olaf's faculty would be howling mad if the administration passed a new policy that required St. Olaf students to miss that much class time.

I get that time away from campus is an issue, but the SAA makes it work. And those colleges are generally thought of as higher tier academic institutions. Pulling out the two TX schools, which are football affiliates only, Hendrix is 7 hours from Sewanee, 8.5 from Centre, 9 from Ogelthorpe in ATL traffic. Their only relatively short road trip is Rhodes at 3 hours. And it's not just one school. Centre is, arguably, worse off than Hendrix. Closest is Sewanee at 4.5 hours. Sure there is a somewhat tight core of Ogelthorpe and Berry and BSC and Sewanee, but then the next cluster is Milsaps to Rhodes or Rhodes to Hendrix, and Hendrix to Milsaps is a long way.

Those clusters are really nowhere near each other either. Compact is great. W&L is darn near the center of the ODAC and I don't think they have a conference trip more than 3 hours. So while they probably fit better in the SAA, I know why they stay, and completely support them staying, in the ODAC. But the SAA does show it can be done if you want to.

With the SAA, the distance is a factor mostly out of necessity though, right? If those schools could be a part of a conference located in the same metro, with almost all other schools within an hour (or slightly more for SJU and one long trip to Concordia), surely that would be preferable. If the only option was long travel, that's a different story but it sure seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

[jknezek]

St. Olaf's president may very well be pushing this. But I know how college faculties work. I can almost guarantee that St. Olaf's faculty would be howling mad if the administration passed a new policy that required St. Olaf students to miss that much class time.

I get that time away from campus is an issue, but the SAA makes it work. And those colleges are generally thought of as higher tier academic institutions. Pulling out the two TX schools, which are football affiliates only, Hendrix is 7 hours from Sewanee, 8.5 from Centre, 9 from Ogelthorpe in ATL traffic. Their only relatively short road trip is Rhodes at 3 hours. And it's not just one school. Centre is, arguably, worse off than Hendrix. Closest is Sewanee at 4.5 hours. Sure there is a somewhat tight core of Ogelthorpe and Berry and BSC and Sewanee, but then the next cluster is Milsaps to Rhodes or Rhodes to Hendrix, and Hendrix to Milsaps is a long way.

Those clusters are really nowhere near each other either. Compact is great. W&L is darn near the center of the ODAC and I don't think they have a conference trip more than 3 hours. So while they probably fit better in the SAA, I know why they stay, and completely support them staying, in the ODAC. But the SAA does show it can be done if you want to.

With the SAA, the distance is a factor mostly out of necessity though, right? If those schools could be a part of a conference located in the same metro, with almost all other schools within an hour (or slightly more for SJU and one long trip to Concordia), surely that would be preferable. If the only option was long travel, that's a different story but it sure seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

Yeah I don't disagree. As I said, W&L would fit great in the SAA, but the ODAC is much better geographically. So W&L is living that argument. I was just pointing out that it CAN work, not that it is what should happen.

[jamtod]

St. Olaf's president may very well be pushing this. But I know how college faculties work. I can almost guarantee that St. Olaf's faculty would be howling mad if the administration passed a new policy that required St. Olaf students to miss that much class time.

I get that time away from campus is an issue, but the SAA makes it work. And those colleges are generally thought of as higher tier academic institutions. Pulling out the two TX schools, which are football affiliates only, Hendrix is 7 hours from Sewanee, 8.5 from Centre, 9 from Ogelthorpe in ATL traffic. Their only relatively short road trip is Rhodes at 3 hours. And it's not just one school. Centre is, arguably, worse off than Hendrix. Closest is Sewanee at 4.5 hours. Sure there is a somewhat tight core of Ogelthorpe and Berry and BSC and Sewanee, but then the next cluster is Milsaps to Rhodes or Rhodes to Hendrix, and Hendrix to Milsaps is a long way.

Those clusters are really nowhere near each other either. Compact is great. W&L is darn near the center of the ODAC and I don't think they have a conference trip more than 3 hours. So while they probably fit better in the SAA, I know why they stay, and completely support them staying, in the ODAC. But the SAA does show it can be done if you want to.

With the SAA, the distance is a factor mostly out of necessity though, right? If those schools could be a part of a conference located in the same metro, with almost all other schools within an hour (or slightly more for SJU and one long trip to Concordia), surely that would be preferable. If the only option was long travel, that's a different story but it sure seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

Yeah I don't disagree. As I said, W&L would fit great in the SAA, but the ODAC is much better geographically. So W&L is living that argument. I was just pointing out that it CAN work, not that it is what should happen.

Agreed. It's certainly possible. I just think it's dumb if the alternative is just getting stomped in one game a year by UST.

[Miacman4040]

But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

They don't just believe it, they actually are an elite academic school, especially compared to other MIAC schools not named Carleton and Mac. STO's president is a fool but he is not bluffing on the academic merits of his school. These weak, timid, pathetic "Coalition of Losers" aren't losing in life after Division 3 football I can assure you that.

[OzJohnnie]

But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

They don't just believe it, they actually are an elite academic school, especially compared to other MIAC schools not named Carleton and Mac. STO's president is a fool but he is not bluffing on the academic merits of his school. These weak, timid, pathetic "Coalition of Losers" aren't losing in life after Division 3 football I can assure you that.

They may claim that, but the evidence in regards to the football team certainly doesn't support that claim.

https://gojohnnies.com/news/2019/4/10/football-sju-leads-the-way-with-20-named-to-nffs-hampshire-honor-society.aspx

COLLEGEVILLE, Minn. – Saint John's University led all divisions of college football with 20 student-athletes named to the 2019 National Football Foundation & College Football Hall of Fame Hampshire Honor Society on Wednesday, April 10...

SJU is one of 29 college football programs that have had at least one honoree in all 13 years of the NFF Hampshire Honor Society. The 20 honorees surpassed the Johnnies' previous high of 18 in 2017.

[jamtod]

But again, that doesn't mean it's not something Anderson isn't pushing - Olaf loves viewing itself as an academic elite.

They don't just believe it, they actually are an elite academic school, especially compared to other MIAC schools not named Carleton and Mac. STO's president is a fool but he is not bluffing on the academic merits of his school. These weak, timid, pathetic "Coalition of Losers" aren't losing in life after Division 3 football I can assure you that.

They may claim that, but the evidence in regards to the football team certainly doesn't support that claim.

https://gojohnnies.com/news/2019/4/10/football-sju-leads-the-way-with-20-named-to-nffs-hampshire-honor-society.aspx

COLLEGEVILLE, Minn. – Saint John's University led all divisions of college football with 20 student-athletes named to the 2019 National Football Foundation & College Football Hall of Fame Hampshire Honor Society on Wednesday, April 10...

SJU is one of 29 college football programs that have had at least one honoree in all 13 years of the NFF Hampshire Honor Society. The 20 honorees surpassed the Johnnies' previous high of 18 in 2017.

This isn't another one of those awards mysteriously run by the university or folks directly connected to SJU that just so happens to give the award to Johnnies at an alarmingly high rate, is it?

[OzJohnnie]

*snif*

[Gregory Sager]

St. Olaf's president may very well be pushing this. But I know how college faculties work. I can almost guarantee that St. Olaf's faculty would be howling mad if the administration passed a new policy that required St. Olaf students to miss that much class time.

I get that time away from campus is an issue, but the SAA makes it work. And those colleges are generally thought of as higher tier academic institutions. Pulling out the two TX schools, which are football affiliates only, Hendrix is 7 hours from Sewanee, 8.5 from Centre, 9 from Ogelthorpe in ATL traffic. Their only relatively short road trip is Rhodes at 3 hours. And it's not just one school. Centre is, arguably, worse off than Hendrix. Closest is Sewanee at 4.5 hours. Sure there is a somewhat tight core of Ogelthorpe and Berry and BSC and Sewanee, but then the next cluster is Milsaps to Rhodes or Rhodes to Hendrix, and Hendrix to Milsaps is a long way.

Those clusters are really nowhere near each other either. Compact is great. W&L is darn near the center of the ODAC and I don't think they have a conference trip more than 3 hours. So while they probably fit better in the SAA, I know why they stay, and completely support them staying, in the ODAC. But the SAA does show it can be done if you want to.

With the SAA, the distance is a factor mostly out of necessity though, right? If those schools could be a part of a conference located in the same metro, with almost all other schools within an hour (or slightly more for SJU and one long trip to Concordia), surely that would be preferable. If the only option was long travel, that's a different story but it sure seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

Yeah I don't disagree. As I said, W&L would fit great in the SAA, but the ODAC is much better geographically. So W&L is living that argument. I was just pointing out that it CAN work, not that it is what should happen.

Another factor is size. The SAA consists of eight schools, which means four travel dates for single round-robin sports (such as football) and seven travel dates for double round-robin sports (such as men's basketball). The MWC, were it to replace St. Norbert with St. Olaf, would remain a ten-school league except for football, in which it would be an eleven-school league. That means five or six travel dates for football, and nine travel dates for the double round-robin sports.