FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[USTBench]

Here's the summary of a 2015 study done on D3 athletic success issue (pg. 114, https://www.academia.edu/27346598/Factors_for_Success_in_NCAA_Division_III_Athletics). I only scanned it, so read it at your leisure:

"The results suggest that a particular profile for success emerged in Division III athletics. Specifically, two types of institutions appear to maintain the greatest opportunity for athletic success: (a) institutions with large student-body populations, and (b) small highly selective institutions. Thus, of the four typologies (Bass, et. al., 2014), a disproportionate amount of academic elite institutions and large public institutions were successful when compared to liberal arts and mission-driven member institutions. Large public institutions such as those seen in the Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (WIAC) regularly boast student populations over 10,000, and acceptance rates over 75% (UWLAX, 2013; UWOSH, 2011; UWSP, n.d.). Historically, the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse, the University of Wisconsin–Oshkosh, and the University of Wisconsin- Stevens Point combined to win more than 70 national championships. Similar to institutions in the WIAC, member schools of the New England Small Colleges Athletic Conference (NESCAC) such as Williams College, Middlebury College, and Amherst College supported historically successful athletic programs (i.e., more than 75 national championships). However, unlike the WIAC institutions, NESCAC members regularly have student populations below 3,000, and  preserve acceptance rates between 10 and 20 percent (Amherst College, n.d.; Middlebury, n.d.; Williams, n.d.). Ultimately, it appears that in order to be athletically successful in Division III athletic competition, institutions can be large or selective, and there does not appear to be substantial opportunities for institutions that do not fall into one of these profiles. The findings of the current study illuminate the outcomes showcased in the previously  presented research by Lawrence and Li (2007) and Lawrence, et al. (2012)."

I think the glaring thing that is omitted when it comes to enrollment as it relates to success, is that most successful high-enrollment schools are part of the WIAC, where there is no public university that sponsors Division II.

It's probably far more cost-effective for parents, whose kids are good enough to play Division II, to send their children to a DIII school locally, than to send them one or two states away, on a partial scholarship while paying out-of-state tuition on the rest of the bill.

The point being, it isn't necessarily enrollment size that contributes to Division III success, but the lack of Division II schools in the area. If MSU-Mankato, Bemidji State, UM-Duluth, SWMSU, Winona State, SCSU, UM-Crookston and MSU-Moorhead played Division III, the MIAC would be about as competitive as the MWC.

[gbpuckfan]

The point being, it isn't necessarily enrollment size that contributes to Division III success, but the lack of Division II schools in the area. If MSU-Mankato, Bemidji State, UM-Duluth, SWMSU, Winona State, SCSU, UM-Crookston and MSU-Moorhead played Division III, the MIAC would be about as competitive as the MWC.

Part of me wants to be offended or upset by that, but that's the truth... 

[Gregory Sager]

Johns Hopkins, Washington - St. Louis, Chicago, and MIT compete against plenty of smaller conference opponents and they aren't being asked to leave.

Six of the eight UAA schools, including Wash U and Chicago, have undergraduate enrollments in the 5000-7500 range. The exceptions are Brandeis (approx. 3700 undergrad) and NYU (approx. 26,000 undergrad).

It should also be pointed out that MIT and Johns Hopkins are each the most academically elite school in their respective leagues. To the best of my knowledge, it would be unprecedented for a D3 league to attempt to evict its most prestigious school.

[Oline89]

One interesting corollary to the "highly selective school" success rate is that most also boast huge endowments, and can therefore sponsor more varsity athletic teams.  Williams lists 30 varsity teams, and MIT 32 (by comparison UST lists 20).  I don't know the official data, but more sports available would presumably lead to more championships (especially when the sports are the more obscure ones: fencing, skiing, water polo, etc)

[TheChucker]

One interesting corollary to the "highly selective school" success rate is that most also boast huge endowments, and can therefore sponsor more varsity athletic teams.  Williams lists 30 varsity teams, and MIT 32 (by comparison UST lists 20).  I don't know the official data, but more sports available would presumably lead to more championships (especially when the sports are the more obscure ones: fencing, skiing, water polo, etc)

I think each school's top 18 sports are scored for D3, four of which must include M/W basketball and M/W soccer. But yeah, if fencing or skiing are in the top 18, it sounds like those would get counted.

link: https://nacda.com/news/2017/5/4/Clarification_Learfield_Directors_Cup_Scoring_Changes.aspx

[Mr.MIAC]

Again, why aren't the media calling BS on this cabal?

I think most of the reporting on this UST/MIAC issue has the goal of reporting what's happening and why, with little in the way of opinion or more in depth articles and research.

Everything from Reusse and Izzo has been very critical of kicking out St. Thomas.

You're right in that people are being critical. I just don't hear them attacking the heart of St. Olaf and Company's argument.

While I'm firmly in the camp for keeping UST in the MIAC, I guess I don't see the logic of your point?  STO and others are certainly free to argue to argue that UST has too high of an undergrad enrollment for the MIAC.  You posted a list of a bunch of non-MIAC schools as a foundation for your position that UST isn't too big for the MIAC.  I don't believe that STO, or anyone else is arguing (at least out loud) that UST doesn't belong in D3, just that they've outgrown the MIAC.

Again, I prefer that UST stays, but I'm confused about how you're calling BS on the STO position on the basis of non-MIAC enrollments when the STO argument is based on MIAC schools?

Of course STO are free to argue that UST has too high of an undergraduate enrollment for the MIAC. In doing so it seems to be saying (or at least implying) that: 1) it's difficult (and unfair) for schools with smaller enrollments to compete against those with larger ones; 2) schools with larger enrollments should be recognized as the exception rather than the rule; and 3) there's a norm that says conferences should be comprised of institutions with similar enrollments. The information I offered shows that in DIII: 1) there are competitive schools with smaller enrollments; 2) larger enrollments are not necessarily the exception; and 3) norms on similar enrollment size don't seem to exist. If STO wants to argue that UST has too high of an undergraduate enrollment for the MIAC, it won't find much precedent elsewhere in DIII (particularly in the T-10). If it wants to oust UST without precedent, then it should explain why the MIAC is different than other conferences--why it's special. It sounds like STO envisions the MIAC as a conference designed exclusively for small liberal arts schools that don't prioritize athletics. While that would make it different than most other conferences, the vision is not borne out in reality. The MIAC includes schools of varying enrollments that prioritize athletics differently, just like most other conferences. It's STO that wants to turn the MIAC into something it's not, starting with the ouster of UST.

[Mr.MIAC]

We've likened MIAC institutions to figures in the GoT, which is inspired by events in British history, most notably the War of the Roses. Maybe some additional historical allusion is in order. I'll go first. If the MIAC were Great Britain, the Oles would be the Welsh—always up for a good song and the occasional surrender.

[USTBench]

We've likened MIAC institutions to figures in the GoT, which is inspired by events in British history, most notably the War of the Roses. Maybe some additional historical allusion is in order. I'll go first. If the MIAC were Great Britain, the Oles would be the Welsh—always up for a good song and the occasional surrender.

I always thought they ran like Welshmen. I recall saying to a teammate during a game once, "Look at that linebacker. He runs like a Welshman."

[Mr.MIAC]

We've likened MIAC institutions to figures in the GoT, which is inspired by events in British history, most notably the War of the Roses. Maybe some additional historical allusion is in order. I'll go first. If the MIAC were Great Britain, the Oles would be the Welsh—always up for a good song and the occasional surrender.

I always thought they ran like Welshmen. I recall saying to a teammate during a game once, "Look at that linebacker. He runs like a Welshman."

Many a Welshman took refuge in the mountains when the English invaded. Maybe that's why St. Olaf calls its campus "The Hill."

[SJUrube]

Is 5 the minimum number of schools needed to sponsor a sport in order for the MIAC to crown a champion? Right now Concordia, Olaf, SJU and Augsburg sponsor wrestling. Wouldn't it be great if someone stepped up to sponsor a 5th team. 

[OzJohnnie]

UST would be the Nazi's.

[Mr.MIAC]

Is 5 the minimum number of schools needed to sponsor a sport in order for the MIAC to crown a champion? Right now Concordia, Olaf, SJU and Augsburg sponsor wrestling. Wouldn't it be great if someone stepped up to sponsor a 5th team.

It won't be UST. They're getting kicked out of the MIAC. SJU will be next to get the boot and Augsburg has higher wrestling aspirations. Maybe the guys from Concordia and St. Olaf can get together regularly to watch a little WWE and talk about how great it is to have a small enrollment.

[OldAuggie]

Is 5 the minimum number of schools needed to sponsor a sport in order for the MIAC to crown a champion? Right now Concordia, Olaf, SJU and Augsburg sponsor wrestling. Wouldn't it be great if someone stepped up to sponsor a 5th team.

UST sponsored wrestling quite a few years ago and they were the 1981 MIAC wrestling champions. Unfortunately UST dropped the sport in 2000.

Read more here:

https://www.tommiemedia.com/featured-news/st-thomas-wrestling-program-won%E2%80%99t-come-back-anytime-soon/

"Prior to the cuts, the wrestling program had its share of MIAC success."

"It was an excellent program. It was top-notch," Nelson said. "It was a bonus for a lot of young men, who were wrestlers, that needed a focus in school."

"In 1981, St. Thomas defeated the 10-time NCAA national champion Augsburg for the MIAC conference championship title, a first in school history. The Tommies were the only other team to clinch the title since 1975"

[OzJohnnie]

The Mohamed Noor conviction a couple hours ago is getting huge play down here.  He's the cop that shot the Aussie woman who called 911 on a prowler.  Australia was watching intently and were 99% sure he was going to get off.

https://outline.com/EHktMr

[USTBench]

UST would be the Nazi's.

First: really, Oz?

Second of all, maybe a grammar Nazi should edit out that unnecessary apostrophe you're sporting in that dumba$$ sentence you just wrote.