FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Mr.MIAC]

I'm thinking D2 and the Northern Sun.

I'd be surprised if the ARC wanted to add UST ... and life as an indie is miserable in D3. Just ask our friends up at Finlandia about that.

You might be right. I think that if they were to go that route, it would only be a stop-gap measure. I can't see UST building long-term rivalries with any of those schools. Outside athletics they don't have much in common with UST.

[jamtod]

What was it that caused Mac to leave for football years ago?
That happened even before my time at UST and certainly wasn't a result of UST laying the smackdown on them or if so, it was one of the few teams UST was consistently able to beat. It seems odd to link that in with 97-0 as if it was an isolated UST problem but maybe I need a history lesson.

[DuffMan]

Mac was awful.  They took beatings at the hands of everyone in the MIAC.

[sjusection105]

Mac was awful.  They took beatings at the hands of everyone in the MIAC.

And it sounds like Mac will be back for football.

If UST goes D2 NSIC, then I see this helping SJU in athletic recruiting in FB,BB,Hockey & Baseball. I could be wrong, but it feels like a benefit in athletic recruiting for SJU.

Now SJU just needs to add more choices in the STEM programs.........

[OzJohnnie]

@sfury

I was very against #TEXIT and was right up to the point I read that Strib article. It isn't emotionalism that changed my mind but new facts. That article pointed out that this had been a well-discussed issue for a number of years and the situation had become worse, not better. And it had reached the point where either UST leaves or the MIAC disintegrates. With those new facts on the ground, I don't see how opinion doesn't change.

Specifically, these are the quotes that did it for me:

"I can assure you that if we had not reached this consensus, the MIAC would have imploded, leaving all of us in a far less attractive position."

And:

"What has happened over the past several years is that several schools have threatened to leave the MIAC because of what they perceive as competition inequities and shifting attitudes about the role of intercollegiate athletics among member schools. This is a conversation that goes back two or three years.

"My position has always been that I want the MIAC to remain as whole as is possible. In the end, if that means that St. Thomas must leave the conference, I will reluctantly support that decision. For me, this was not about removing St. Thomas, it was about saving the MIAC."

[OzJohnnie]

I wonder if the Target Field game with 33k and the upcoming Alianz Field have had an impact?  The Johnnies attract big crowds (the biggest in D3, in case you didn't know) but they have always had the games on campus and always will. They have a big radio contract, but the games always start on the hour as per the MIAC rules rather than at 10 minutes past.

It's little things like that which can stack up to make partner programs unhappy and then it takes just one little flashpoint (97-0) to spark the explosion.  In an explosion the spark is always tiny.

I am still amazed that this was not resolved since it's been in discussion for a number of years but I guess that member institutions want the MIAC to be something UST don't want to be a part of. I can't blame either party for walking away.

[sjusection105]

I'm thinking D2 and the Northern Sun.

I'd be surprised if the ARC wanted to add UST ... and life as an indie is miserable in D3. Just ask our friends up at Finlandia about that.

You might be right. I think that if they were to go that route, it would only be a stop-gap measure. I can't see UST building long-term rivalries with any of those schools. Outside athletics they don't have much in common with UST.

A landing spot for a few years as there will be an opening:
The irony is their FB coach was at St. Olaf prior to taking the job at Augustana.
http://www.northernsun.org/news/2018/12/13/general-augustana-university-announces-a-goal-of-transitioning-to-division-i.aspx

[OldAuggie]

I'm thinking D2 and the Northern Sun.

I'd be surprised if the ARC wanted to add UST ... and life as an indie is miserable in D3. Just ask our friends up at Finlandia about that.

If UST were to go D2 what would they do with their storied hockey program?

Options are:
Drop men's and women's hockey
Make the move to D1 hockey with the current high school hockey arena shared with STA high school. 
Build a new D1 arena on campus.

The ARC does not sponsor hockey but I could understand entering that conference and have hockey go to the NCHA. Oh, the travel.......

[sfury]

@sfury

I was very against #TEXIT and was right up to the point I read that Strib article. It isn't emotionalism that changed my mind but new facts. That article pointed out that this had been a well-discussed issue for a number of years and the situation had become worse, not better. And it had reached the point where either UST leaves or the MIAC disintegrates. With those new facts on the ground, I don't see how opinion doesn't change.

Specifically, these are the quotes that did it for me:

"I can assure you that if we had not reached this consensus, the MIAC would have imploded, leaving all of us in a far less attractive position."

And:

"What has happened over the past several years is that several schools have threatened to leave the MIAC because of what they perceive as competition inequities and shifting attitudes about the role of intercollegiate athletics among member schools. This is a conversation that goes back two or three years.

"My position has always been that I want the MIAC to remain as whole as is possible. In the end, if that means that St. Thomas must leave the conference, I will reluctantly support that decision. For me, this was not about removing St. Thomas, it was about saving the MIAC."

I want specifics still, not vague quotes delivered in an email. I guarantee the Star Tribune would happily accept a guest editorial piece bylined by one or more of the school presidents and ghostwritten by someone in the communications department. Lay out point by point exactly what has happened in the discussions over the years. Detail the complaints, write about the unfairness. Show the evidence of how the Tommies and others have violated the spirit of D3.

Alternatively, the schools could get a Wordpress or Blogspot site for free and create a URL about why the Tommies had to go. Could even throw up some cool graphics or pictures of scoreboards that show lopsided scores, maybe an artsy black and white shot showing a Tommie kicking dirt in the face of a Carleton lineman.

That's what I want to see. That's what I need to see if they're going to boot the Tommies and rip the conference apart. And to me that's exactly what they'll be doing when you bounce a founding member like this, over these issues. It's a metaphorical ripping in this case and not the literal one the Augsburg president and others threaten, but I still want to see the case.

Also, this quote:
"What has happened over the past several years is that several schools have threatened to leave the MIAC because of what they perceive as competition inequities and shifting attitudes about the role of intercollegiate athletics among member schools. This is a conversation that goes back two or three years."

As an SJU guy I gotta say...gulp. He doesn't say "because of what they perceive as competition inequities and shifting attitudes about the role of intercollegiate athletics at St. Thomas." Instead he says at member schools. I don't think he's talking about Gustavus tennis or baseball here. What other school has put money and resources and altered its attitude to intercollegiate athletics? Our good old Johnnies. To me, all this does is again point out (again, as has been noted by Redtooth) that eventually the Johnnies will be the one on the block, called in front of the teacher for being a bully. If they want to make the school pay for its sins they could even go back to the 2003 season and all the promotions over win No. 409. "Look in our programs to see if we've won? And Bobbleheads? Really, Johnnies? And you think that goes with the spirit of D3? Do you see Hamline doing that type of nonsense? Even your own fans were complaining about this commercialization, so why shouldn't we now punish you? Sorry, why shouldn't we give you the opportunity to pursue a new conference or new division altogether?"

Also, we have known that the talks go back two or three years, again from Redtooth. I never thought the presidents thought of this in February 2019. But to me, that makes it even stranger that they would actually now go through with this considering in the most recent football season the Tommies lost two and should have lost a third to Gustavus. Things have changed! I can just imagine how the presidents were secretly hoping for a 10-0 Tommie regular season where the average score was 79-6. And I want them to tell me what's gotten worse the past two or three years because it isn't the enrollment issue. It's not like the Tommies went from 2,000 in 2016 to 6,000 today.

I've read nothing that changes my view (supported by others with more knowledge) that this can be traced back to the day the Tommies hired Caruso. A guy who was just sitting there at lowly Mac, available for anyone in the conference to hire. But Fritz actually made the hire and Caruso has used his abilities and, yes, the advantages available at St. Thomas, to build a powerhouse. But to me those inherent advantages or the school's vision or attitude toward sports in no way means the Tommies should be tossed out of the MIAC. Instead it's simply punishing a school, and a program and a coach who did exactly what they should have done.

I also disagree with the sentiment I've seen here and elsewhere online that goes something like, "You can't blame the Tommies for doing what they did. But they also have no one to blame but themselves for this happening." Uh, that is blaming them! Be great...but not too great. Which sports and disciplines are schools allowed to excel in? Music and tennis and wrestling are okay. Dominate away in them! Bring pride to the conference! Football? No. See ya. It's bizarre.

(But it's about more than football, the presidents and others scream! It's all those sports the Tommies dominate! They keep winning the all-sports trophy! It's about indoor track and field dominance too, you know. Don't make this about just football and Caruso. Well, apologies to George Durenberger and Pat Wiesner...no one is actually getting worked up over the all-sports trophy. And even if people did care about this total sports dominance....why now? The Tommies won the Durneberger EVERY year from 1980-1996. Johnnies tied in 1990. It wasn't a crisis then, it wasn't a crisis when the Tommies again started winning it every year since 2008. That's old hat to them. What did change? Football.)

Look, it seems inevitable the Tommies are out. So be it. And it's not like I'm not going to follow the Johnnies just because I'm upset over the actions of presidents in Northfield or Hamline or Augsburg or St. Peter. I'll still be forking over money to watch a webcast, because that's in the spirit of D3 intercollegiate athletics and that in no way indicates maybe the Johnnies have taken this thing a bit too far and should possibly watch themselves next. But I'm also not going to stop thinking the whole thing was ludicrous and a total overreaction and one that severely and permanently damages the very league the presidents are saying they're trying to save.

And if the Tommies themselves wanted to make a big move to another division, fine. That's their choice and if that happened I could complain about that and if need be rip them for it. But they haven't. They're getting the boot.

In conclusion, Tommies suck, but they're also really good in sports. We should mock them for the former but not be terrified about the latter.

[OzJohnnie]

sfury, if you're forced to choose between the MIAC and the Tommies then which choice do you make?

[Pat Coleman]

sfury, if you're forced to choose between the MIAC and the Tommies then which choice do you make?

Define "the MIAC" in this sentence. What if the actual question is as follows:

"If you're forced to choose between the MIAC with all of its current schools other than St. Thomas, or a MIAC with all of its current schools other than St. Olaf, Carleton and Macalester, which choice do you make?"

[sfury]

sfury, if you're forced to choose between the MIAC and the Tommies then which choice do you make?

Neither? Both? I dunno. Guess I reject the premise of the question.

Edit: Pat said it better than me.

[OzJohnnie]

The aug president said there would be no MIAC if UST stays. So, you're choosing between UST or a couple new small conferences with no AQ and only half a schedule. Which do you choose?

[Pat Coleman]

The aug president said there would be no MIAC if UST stays. So, you're choosing between UST or a couple new small conferences with no AQ and only half a schedule. Which do you choose?

I don't take that statement as a fait accompli, I suppose.

[Texas Ole]

What was it that caused Mac to leave for football years ago?
That happened even before my time at UST and certainly wasn't a result of UST laying the smackdown on them or if so, it was one of the few teams UST was consistently able to beat. It seems odd to link that in with 97-0 as if it was an isolated UST problem but maybe I need a history lesson.

It was several issues, and several MIAC schools were mentioned.  It centered around the role of athletics within academia.  While admissions standards vary for every school it was clear some schools were lowering their standards for large groups of athletes.  Even the Ivy League has a 10% rule, but from my understanding some admissions standards were being ignored for the sake of athletics.  There were complaints about the financial aid packages some athletes were receiving.  Overall spending when it comes to athletics was also discussed.  Apparently the discussions in the past were quite heated where certain people at Mac stopped talking to at least one school and pulled their football team.  It was not just a football issue, but football became the result.

The other part that gets left off with Mac is that they struggled to field a football team a few years.  I think at one point they 20 guys on the roster.  Getting the snot kicked out of you by a team that traveled more that double your roster isn't fun, and it could be argued that it isn't safe.  In 2005 they lost to Northwestern (MN) by 30.  It was Northwestern's second game that day.  I think articles were being written questioning whether or not Mac should continue with football.  I think if Macalester could have found a reasonable solution for all sports it is possible they would have the left the conference completely.