FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[jamtod]

Seriously, someone argues that Johnnie-Tommie at Target Field is an unfair advantage.  Let Carleton and STO schedule their game their, they wouldn't get much more than they normally do.  SJU and UST should not have to apologize for passionate fan bases.  I would say that SJU fans traveling helps out the CoL teams get more money when they come to town.

I mean, it might be "unfair" depending on how one defines "fair."

Just like it's unfair that Carleton has a huge endowment and tons of uber-wealthy alums to support the university's priorities. Or that Carleton's quiz bowl teams get to travel in 1st Class while St Thomas quiz bowl teams have to rent a van. Surely that unfairly attracts elite potential Carleton students in a way that we just can't compete with.

I guess unfair isn't always bad. Good for Carleton and their quiz bowl teams. I think that's awesome and I will do my best to respect them if I ever have one as my intellectually superior boss.
As it stands, the CEO of my organization is a Tommie.

[wm4]

Carlton and STO could always do another Liter Bowl

[GoldandBlueBU]

Seriously, someone argues that Johnnie-Tommie at Target Field is an unfair advantage.  Let Carleton and STO schedule their game their, they wouldn't get much more than they normally do.  SJU and UST should not have to apologize for passionate fan bases.  I would say that SJU fans traveling helps out the CoL teams get more money when they come to town.

As it stands, the CEO of my organization is a Tommie.

As much as we all might want to think that our institutions carry more weight, in my 10+ years of corporate finance in the Twin Cities, with that last several of those including making a few hires, and doing a lot of interviews, the MIAC as a whole is pretty much on a level playing field.

The only school that really stands out on a resume from around here is Carlson.  Not saying it's right or wrong, or true to my personal opinion, but true in my experience in how I've seen others evaluate candidates / resumes.  Also, that's just for business majors...

[DuffMan]

As much as we all might want to think that our institutions carry more weight, in my 10+ years of corporate finance in the Twin Cities, with that last several of those including making a few hires, and doing a lot of interviews, the MIAC as a whole is pretty much on a level playing field.

I work in the sciences, and I would agree.  I've interviewed, worked with, and worked for grads of Concordia, St. Bens, St. Thomas, Auggie Tech, Bethel, Hamline, Carleton, Gustavus, and St. Olaf.  Aside from a few dinks sprinkled in, I've been impressed with the vast majority and wouldn't judge an applicant based on which MIAC school they graduated from.

[emma17]

There may be unintended consequences w the idea of the WIAC amending rules to allow St. Thomas in. We'd end up w a conference that is home to three teams to have reached the Stagg Bowl in the last ten years-surely the Pool C rules would need to be amended.

[Gregory Sager]

There may be unintended consequences w the idea of the WIAC amending rules to allow St. Thomas in.

What rules would have to be amended to let in St. Thomas?

[gbpuckfan]

There may be unintended consequences w the idea of the WIAC amending rules to allow St. Thomas in.

What rules would have to be amended to let in St. Thomas?

I interpret that as sarcasm - that the already mighty WIAC would be even more of a force by adding another football power - and woe to the rest of us, and our chances of getting an at-large bid.

A rule guaranteeing an at-large from us peons in the MWC and conferences of our ilk would be appreciated, though 

[OzJohnnie]

As much as we all might want to think that our institutions carry more weight, in my 10+ years of corporate finance in the Twin Cities, with that last several of those including making a few hires, and doing a lot of interviews, the MIAC as a whole is pretty much on a level playing field.

I work in the sciences, and I would agree.  I've interviewed, worked with, and worked for grads of Concordia, St. Bens, St. Thomas, Auggie Tech, Bethel, Hamline, Carleton, Gustavus, and St. Olaf.  Aside from a few dinks sprinkled in, I've been impressed with the vast majority and wouldn't judge an applicant based on which MIAC school they graduated from.

I've worked in Consulting/IT with, amazingly, two other Johnnies a Tommie and a Gustie.  You couldn't tell the difference between them.  Except for one week when the Tommie sat in the kitchen area sulking while tearfully saying, "We really do suck."  But he bounced back and was good as gold after that.

The biggest asset for all of them had nothing to do with their schooling but more will Minnesota.  They were all good team players and collaborators.  Minnesota nice works well in the rest of the world, for the most part.  Particularly when there's a lot of short term team building moving from one project or opportunity to the next.  And coming out of the private school network they all demonstrated (despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary we routinely put on display here in these boards) a bit of temperate moderation toward new and different ideas and experiences.

So, the obvious conclusion is send your sons to SJU and daughters to CSB.

[OzJohnnie]

And here's the real issue, I suspect, in the MIAC.  This pressure.  Broader collaboration is wanted in the MIAC and considering the conference as a simple sporting association is no longer enough.  I suspect.

Enrollment Shortfalls Spread to More Colleges

There are a lot of themes in that article that I have heard echoed in the Strib's articles on this current question.  I think the issue is a lot bigger than 97-0 but that game, and football in general, is a good catalyst.  And why is UST's size now an issue when it wasn't 20 years ago?  Because 20 years ago admissions were still streaming upwards and all was rosy.  Not so much anymore.  Things change.

[sjusection105]

And here's the real issue, I suspect, in the MIAC.  This pressure.  Broader collaboration is wanted in the MIAC and considering the conference as a simple sporting association is no longer enough.  I suspect.

Enrollment Shortfalls Spread to More Colleges

There are a lot of themes in that article that I have heard echoed in the Strib's articles on this current question.  I think the issue is a lot bigger than 97-0 but that game, and football in general, is a good catalyst.  And why is UST's size now an issue when it wasn't 20 years ago?  Because 20 years ago admissions were still streaming upwards and all was rosy.  Not so much anymore.  Things change.

A segment on WCCO TV 6:00PM news this evening. The building trades are screaming for employees. The VP of the HVAC trade association noted needing 137,000 technicians (nation wide I would suspect,but no clarification) by 2022. This trade association offers 6 full scholarships to Dunwoody every year. Last year 5 were claimed. They went on to note an apprentice starts at $40K and a Master Technician (approx 7 years experience) makes $100,000 plus. No student loan debt but, it is manual labor. Then again a Philosophy degree from any Liberal Arts College gets you a job at Starbucks.

[OzJohnnie]

Yeah, I hate to say it but I have pushed all my daughter's away from a liberal arts education.  Were they to inherit a couple million bucks and have the luxury of security then I would be full hog on them pursuing a liberal or theoretical pursuit.  But professions or trades are the way to financial security in the modern world so business/medical/design/tech/engineering, etc, it is.

My eldest daughter has a couple male friends that have gone into the trades (an electrician for one from memory) who a year and a half after high school are well on their way to financial independence.  It's a serious consideration.  Valuable skills and no debt, but you have the stigma of no higher degree.  I think the higher education bubble is in serious risk of popping badly and it won't just be the schools that close who will suffer but all the over/mis-educated who are saddled with debt that has little ROI.  The MIAC has avoided bubbling too much, I hope, but we'll see in the next five to ten years, I think.

This recent article is interesting: How many colleges and universities have closed since 2016?

More than 100 for-profit and career colleges closed between the 2016-17 and 2017-18 academic years alone, while 20 nonprofit colleges shuttered during that period, according to data from the National Center for Education Statistics. And although the number of credentials issued increased 1.2% from 2012-13 to 2016-17, for-profits offered nearly 30% fewer than nonprofits.

A 2016 report from Ernst & Young affiliate the Parthenon Group found 800 colleges vulnerable to "critical strategic challenges" due to their small size, compared to a much smaller share of colleges with enrollments over 1,000. The report lists several risk-factors for small colleges amid the current environment of consolidation in higher education. Those include: enrolling fewer than 1,000 students; the absence of online education programs; tuition increases greater than 8% and discounts higher than 35%; and depending on tuition for more than 85% of revenue.

I don't think this UST debate really has much to do about sport, despite the fact that it's entirely taking place around the bylaws of a sporting association.

(EDIT: The article lists the 22 private liberal arts colleges that have shut the doors since 2016.  According to this article, there are fewer than 200 private liberal arts colleges in the US.  Which means that around 10% have gone belly up in the last two years.



Yes, this is a larger concern than football scores or sports dominance, but that's where the battle is being fought.)

[SJUrube]

I think we can pinpoint the moment the UST football program anointed Bethel as their biggest rival as the date they posed for a team photo on the Royals 50 yard line following the game.

[Texas Ole]

I love how everyone assumes it is St. Olaf leading the charge since they were flat out slaughtered 2 years ago when a Catholic school decided it wanted revenge for the Reformation.  I get the Coalition of Losers jokes.  Some of them might be a little funny.  I also wonder if removing UST is a ploy by Mac to rejoin the conference without having to deal with the Tommies.  As a sports fan I love seeing the Oles win, but I don't feel the school needs to compromise its mission for the sake of one program.  St. Olaf already has one of the largest athletic programs in the conference, and they all have to be funded.  I would also tell any perspective student-athlete that if you are coming to St. Olaf to live out some gridiron glory fantasy you should probably look elsewhere.  If coming to St. Olaf fits your future goals and you are looking for a well rounded experience then St. Olaf might be a good fit for you.  This is D3.  Sure a few guys make it in professional sports from this level, but the odds aren't in your favor.  It's fun to win games and compete nationally, but at what cost?  I think some of these schools have determined it is in their best interest to fund other programs such as need based financial aid.

I personally don't care where SJU/UST play football games.  I don't care about what publicity they get nationally for their athletic accomplishments.  I wouldn't care about MIAC sports if I didn't attend St. Olaf.  St. Olaf was on ESPN College GameDay years ago with Concordia.  It was a nice gesture, but I don't think it helped with recruiting athletes.

This has been simmering for many years.  It seems like every year for some time there have been questions as to whether St. Thomas was a good fit for the MIAC.  Some of the issues brought up by Miacman4040 were discussed in previous years regarding multiple schools and a variety of teams.  I have been told this is one of the many reasons that Mac left for football.  The question becomes what is the role of athletics within the larger context of an educational institution especially at the D3 level.  Right now many schools are asking if athletics are adding value to their schools.  If a group of schools left the MIAC because they no longer felt the conference added to its mission causing the conference to lose its AQ status in multiple sports would that be of a benefit to every school?

What would the impact of losing athletics be on each of the MIAC schools?  What would the end of the MIAC do for schools?  It might pose some financial issues for certain schools.  St. Olaf several years ago looked to drop hockey, but a group decided to help fund the program and a women's team was added.  A few years ago many schools cut programs due to rising costs.  This financial concern is probably a major fear for a few MIAC schools especially those with smaller endowments and less national recognition. 

As we look at the ever changing educational environment and workforce liberal arts colleges are having to adapt.  A college degree doesn't guarantee a job anymore.  Employers are looking for skills, and the major does matter.  It is worth asking does this major help me advance in my career whether it is going directly in to the workforce or moving towards an advanced degree.  If the answer is no to both of those then there is a problem. 

I loved St. Olaf being in the MIAC.  Travel was easy for schools and fans.  It was fun finding a game most nights and on the weekend.  My opinion all along was that if St. Olaf wanted to leave then it should leave along with whoever else wanted.  Based on the Pribbenow email I am guessing there were enough that wanted to leave that it would be a burden on the conference and not every school would have a place.

What happens to St. John's if St. Thomas leaves the MIAC?  Do they look to move with UST?  I've long thought SJU would have an easier route to move up to D2 and FCS than UST.  They don't have to deal with the women's sports.  They might have to add and renovate a few facilities, but I don't think it would be a major undertaking.

[OzJohnnie]

I had the same take on the Pribbenow email that you did, TO, and it was the reason I changed my mind on UST staying or going.

[jamtod]

I may be wrong about this as I don't recall specifics, but I am pretty sure we had direct sources indicating that Olaf and Anderson were a driving force, not just a random assumption based on the wooping from a few years ago.