FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[GoldandBlueBU]

Just catching up to this St. Thomas ousting from the MIAC due to "athletic competive parity" reasons. . As an east coaster having visited St. Thomas when Hobart got clobbered in the Football playoffs, I was impressed with the campus and the student body. While St. Thomas may be larger and on the Endowment upswing, not sure why this deserves an ouster, but then I am ignorant if there are other reasons for this. In the Liberty League we have disparity in both enrollment( 1500 to 6000 +) and endowment ( 100MM to over 1Billion) , but it seems to work with colleges having strengths and weaknesses by sport with a few schools opting out for D1 in Hockey and Lacrosse.  If St. Thomas was in the NESCAC  they would be only the fifth best sports program in the conference based on IMG Directors Cup D3 points for 2018-2019. Just curious if there were other unmentioned reasons for the ouster.

Yes.  One is named David, and the other is Glenn.

[DawgsOT57]

Claremont-Mudd-Scripps has won 31 of the last 37 SCIAC All Sports Trophies.  Even in wacky California, nobody ever considered kicking them out.  Pathetic.

https://www.thesciac.org/information/allsports/past%20winners

[MUC57]

57Johnnie

Check your PM. Thanks.

[57Johnnie]

57Johnnie

Check your PM. Thanks.

Got it. Cheers 

[sjusection105]

It would be interesting if AO set a Pick em' on what conference the Tommies will eventually end up joining.

[Ralph Turner]

UST would be a much better fit in the ARC than going NAIA. The most realistic option would be the GPAC. Really brutal travel schedule, but they wouldn't be a shoe in to win that conference. Morningside might have a thing or two to say about it.

More importantly, it's an all-sports conference. Eighteen of UST's sports would be covered by joining the GPAC (although I agree that it's extremely doubtful that it will ever come to that). Only men's and women's hockey and men's and women's swimming would be left to find alternate conference homes.

For the record, the only two sports in which the ARC can't provide a home for the Tommies are men's and women's hockey.

Hmmm... ARC for everything except M&W Hockey which could affiliate with the WIAC)

(modified by GS for formatting)

[AO]

It would be interesting if AO set a Pick em' on what conference the Tommies will eventually end up joining.

The poll is doing a good job of setting the odds as long as people stop messing with it.  If you're looking to make a bet my insider info leads me to believe the WIAC is being overvalued.

[sjusection105]

It would be interesting if AO set a Pick em' on what conference the Tommies will eventually end up joining.

The poll is doing a good job of setting the odds as long as people stop messing with it.  If you're looking to make a bet my insider info leads me to believe the WIAC is being overvalued.

The NSIC is the logical stepping stone to the ultimate goal of a Mid-Major such as Pioneer League for football, perhaps the WCHA for hockey and the Summit League for other sports.

[Texas Ole]

UST would be a much better fit in the ARC than going NAIA. The most realistic option would be the GPAC. Really brutal travel schedule, but they wouldn't be a shoe in to win that conference. Morningside might have a thing or two to say about it.

More importantly, it's an all-sports conference. Eighteen of UST's sports would be covered by joining the GPAC (although I agree that it's extremely doubtful that it will ever come to that). Only men's and women's hockey and men's and women's swimming would be left to find alternate conference homes.

For the record, the only two sports in which the ARC can't provide a home for the Tommies are men's and women's hockey.

Hmmm... ARC for everything except M&W Hockey which could affiliate with the WIAC)

NCHA is likely for hockey in the scenario.

Will the WIAC want to take a private school from MN that has shown to be a power?  It seems like more than a few people are worried about it.  Does the ARC want a power with more travel?  I am not sure.  St. Thomas would likely be a horrible fit in the UMAC, but it might make sense.  There probably isn't a perfect fit for St. Thomas at the D3 level.  I am still wondering if staying at the D3 level as an independent is possible.

Moving up is going to be expensive.  Does St. Thomas have the funding to move up a division?  It is going to take significant initial and ongoing financial commitments.

My guess is that if UST finds the funds they will move up trying to grow their brand.  If they do move up a division I could see SJU following them.  I think the move would be easier for St. John's.  I think the MIAC is fractured right now, and I still think it could dissolve.  Losing another school or two could be fatal to the conference.

(modified by GS for formatting)

[OldAuggie]

Not trying to defend what has happened but I think you might be right Texas Ole. If SJU + school moves, the MIAC is left with a messy situation. I hope that the Presidents considered this when they declared their potential votes and decided that maybe in this new scenario the MIAC has a better chance of survival vs. half the schools threatening to leave.

Nobody is satisfied with the current situation except those presidents who were determined to kick them out but I have a feeling there is more to the story that has little to do with football and athletics. The conference and the remaining schools have been dragged through the streets since the announcement was made and like everyone, I am surprised they have stayed silent. Those voters can't hide under the bed wringing their hands forever.  Somebody needs to talk.

[Ralph Turner]

Not trying to defend what has happened but I think you might be right Texas Ole. If SJU + school moves, the MIAC is left with a messy situation. I hope that the Presidents considered this when they declared their potential votes and decided that maybe in this new scenario the MIAC has a better chance of survival vs. half the schools threatening to leave.

Nobody is satisfied with the current situation except those presidents who were determined to kick them out but I have a feeling there is more to the story that has little to do with football and athletics. The conference and the remaining schools have been dragged through the streets since the announcement was made and like everyone, I am surprised they have stayed silent. Those voters can't hide under the bed wringing their hands forever.  Somebody needs to talk.

Dave McHugh has made comments about the situation evolving.

Do the Johnnies love the Tommies more than anyone else in the whole conference? Combined?

It is hard to imagine a Tommie without his Johnnie!

[Jonny Utah]

A few random thoughts I had about this MIAC thing.

Not exactly the same as the NCAA, but for about 20 years in Massachusetts HS football, the playoffs were determined by league winners (ex: Division one had 8 leagues, so 8 league champions made the playoffs).  What happened though, is that some teams found themselves at the bottom of the leagues every year, and simply couldn't compete with the better teams in the league and never made the playoffs.  As I'm assuming it works in other parts of the country, a high schools enrollment doesn't always equate to better football programs, although the divisions are often set up that way, while leagues are usually set up geographically with similar sized schools.  Anyway what happened is that some of the bottom teams asked the leagues if they could play more teams outside the league with similar losing records (while not playing the top league teams) so they wouldn't be 0-10 or 1-9 every year.  The leagues and MIAA agreed but only if those schools were ineligible for the playoffs.  The bottom schools didn't care, they knew they weren't winning state championship games anyway and the top teams didn't mind either as they could play some more random out of league games.

Now I don't think bottom teams in the MIAC need to forgo playoff aspirations in order to avoid St. Thomas, but couldn't the MIAC at least come up with some sort of round robin with teams at the top only playing teams at the bottom  every other year or few years?  I know that would throw of the pool A bid formulas the NCAA loves to depend on, but I'm also guessing the NCAA isn't thrilled with the potential of having a top team thrown into a pool B/C group which should be reserved for teams who are in unique situations.  All in all I think the major problem with the pool A/AQ system is exactly what the MIAC did, which is basically manipulate the system to their leagues advantage.  If more teams do this, the NCAA might be forced to make a bigger decision on the  automatic bid system.   

Just my rambling thoughts.  Bottom line, if St. Olaf doesn't want to play St. Thomas, don't play them.  You only need 7 teams in a league for a pool A bid right?  Why not have the bottom 2 teams play their own schedule for a few years in just football?

[jknezek]

A few random thoughts I had about this MIAC thing.

Not exactly the same as the NCAA, but for about 20 years in Massachusetts HS football, the playoffs were determined by league winners (ex: Division one had 8 leagues, so 8 league champions made the playoffs).  What happened though, is that some teams found themselves at the bottom of the leagues every year, and simply couldn't compete with the better teams in the league and never made the playoffs.  As I'm assuming it works in other parts of the country, a high schools enrollment doesn't always equate to better football programs, although the divisions are often set up that way, while leagues are usually set up geographically with similar sized schools.  Anyway what happened is that some of the bottom teams asked the leagues if they could play more teams outside the league with similar losing records (while not playing the top league teams) so they wouldn't be 0-10 or 1-9 every year.  The leagues and MIAA agreed but only if those schools were ineligible for the playoffs.  The bottom schools didn't care, they knew they weren't winning state championship games anyway and the top teams didn't mind either as they could play some more random out of league games.

Now I don't think bottom teams in the MIAC need to forgo playoff aspirations in order to avoid St. Thomas, but couldn't the MIAC at least come up with some sort of round robin with teams at the top only playing teams at the bottom  every other year or few years?  I know that would throw of the pool A bid formulas the NCAA loves to depend on, but I'm also guessing the NCAA isn't thrilled with the potential of having a top team thrown into a pool B/C group which should be reserved for teams who are in unique situations.  All in all I think the major problem with the pool A/AQ system is exactly what the MIAC did, which is basically manipulate the system to their leagues advantage.  If more teams do this, the NCAA might be forced to make a bigger decision on the  automatic bid system.   

Just my rambling thoughts.  Bottom line, if St. Olaf doesn't want to play St. Thomas, don't play them.  You only need 7 teams in a league for a pool A bid right?  Why not have the bottom 2 teams play their own schedule for a few years in just football?

Because that's the point of the conference? Mac basically was allowed to do what your suggesting. They took their football team and went somewhere else. Left all the other teams in the MIAC to deal with an extra OOC game needing to be scheduled. The MIAC didn't like that, so they created a new rule. In or out. No cherry picking where you can compete and where you can't. If you want to be in the MIAC you must be in the MIAC.

Unless you are too good... then you can want to be in the MIAC, but the MIAC may not want you to be in it!

Frankly though, unless you got some other conferences to go along with you, you couldn't do what you are suggesting anyway. The bottom 2 MIAC teams would have a nightmare time scheduling enough games, and the rest of the MIAC would hate finding 2 more OOC games. There just aren't enough opponents. You need a conference. That's why UST is in such a perilous state now. They need a conference. Being Independent is not a long term option. Not for the bottom teams, not for the top teams.

[WW]

UST would be a much better fit in the ARC than going NAIA. The most realistic option would be the GPAC. Really brutal travel schedule, but they wouldn't be a shoe in to win that conference. Morningside might have a thing or two to say about it.

More importantly, it's an all-sports conference. Eighteen of UST's sports would be covered by joining the GPAC (although I agree that it's extremely doubtful that it will ever come to that). Only men's and women's hockey and men's and women's swimming would be left to find alternate conference homes.

For the record, the only two sports in which the ARC can't provide a home for the Tommies are men's and women's hockey.

Hmmm... ARC for everything except M&W Hockey which could affiliate with the WIAC)

NCHA is likely for hockey in the scenario.

Will the WIAC want to take a private school from MN that has shown to be a power?  It seems like more than a few people are worried about it.  Does the ARC want a power with more travel?  I am not sure.  St. Thomas would likely be a horrible fit in the UMAC, but it might make sense.  There probably isn't a perfect fit for St. Thomas at the D3 level.  I am still wondering if staying at the D3 level as an independent is possible.

Moving up is going to be expensive.  Does St. Thomas have the funding to move up a division?  It is going to take significant initial and ongoing financial commitments.

My guess is that if UST finds the funds they will move up trying to grow their brand.  If they do move up a division I could see SJU following them.  I think the move would be easier for St. John's.  I think the MIAC is fractured right now, and I still think it could dissolve.  Losing another school or two could be fatal to the conference.

A number of these — Carleton, St Olaf, St Mary's — profile as a better fit for the Midwest Conference anyway.

(modified by GS for formatting)

[badger1845]

Personally I think it was the wrong decision to force UST out.  The whole thing seemed to have started after the 97-0 drubbing of St. Olaf.  Looking into that I saw that Olaf essentially hired a whole staff from UST.  So while I don't maybe agree with running it up that much.  They had to know that the staff at UST probably wasn't happy about it.  I can only imagine what the games will be like now that they are being forced out.  Good luck to the bottom of the conference.  Anyway as a WIAC grad I'd love to see UST in the conference.  It would take away having to search for 1 game which always seemed to be, and apparently continues to be, a problem.  Also what are the possibilities for getting 2 AQ's for a conference?  My personal thoughts on it though is that they will be moving up to D2 or higher, which is to bad.