FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

Personally I think it was the wrong decision to force UST out.  The whole thing seemed to have started after the 97-0 drubbing of St. Olaf.  Looking into that I saw that Olaf essentially hired a whole staff from UST.  So while I don't maybe agree with running it up that much.  They had to know that the staff at UST probably wasn't happy about it.  I can only imagine what the games will be like now that they are being forced out.  Good luck to the bottom of the conference.  Anyway as a WIAC grad I'd love to see UST in the conference.  It would take away having to search for 1 game which always seemed to be, and apparently continues to be, a problem.  Also what are the possibilities for getting 2 AQ's for a conference? My personal thoughts on it though is that they will be moving up to D2 or higher, which is to bad.

0%. All of DIII would have to vote on it and it wouldn't pass. There is already a method to get 2 bids, no need to ever give one conference 2 AQs in writing.

[Gregory Sager]

UST would be a much better fit in the ARC than going NAIA. The most realistic option would be the GPAC. Really brutal travel schedule, but they wouldn't be a shoe in to win that conference. Morningside might have a thing or two to say about it.

More importantly, it's an all-sports conference. Eighteen of UST's sports would be covered by joining the GPAC (although I agree that it's extremely doubtful that it will ever come to that). Only men's and women's hockey and men's and women's swimming would be left to find alternate conference homes.

For the record, the only two sports in which the ARC can't provide a home for the Tommies are men's and women's hockey.

Hmmm... ARC for everything except M&W Hockey which could affiliate with the WIAC)

NCHA is likely for hockey in the scenario.

Will the WIAC want to take a private school from MN that has shown to be a power?  It seems like more than a few people are worried about it.

Again, though, that's just one sport. Football is an outlier in terms of the scant number of Pool C berths that are available, because only about 53% of D3 schools have football programs. That essentially means that in football the Tommies would be one more big dog among several fighting over a single pork chop (although the addition of UST would be a boon to existing WIAC football teams in the sense that it would lessen their chronic problem of finding non-conference opponents). But in some of the other sports UST would be a totally useful addition to the WIAC.

Does the ARC want a power with more travel?  I am not sure.  St. Thomas would likely be a horrible fit in the UMAC, but it might make sense.  There probably isn't a perfect fit for St. Thomas at the D3 level.  I am still wondering if staying at the D3 level as an independent is possible.

Of course it's possible. The question is whether or not it's advisable. The bottom line is that becoming a D3 indie is a poor alternative for UST, for a host of reasons. As jknezek said, it's a terrible long-term option ... but even as a short-term solution it would be at best a serious and expensive inconvenience, and at worst could cause damage to Tommies sports as well. It would certainly blunt UST's momentum as an emerging D3 all-sports power.

Moving up is going to be expensive.  Does St. Thomas have the funding to move up a division?  It is going to take significant initial and ongoing financial commitments.

My guess is that if UST finds the funds they will move up trying to grow their brand.  If they do move up a division I could see SJU following them.  I think the move would be easier for St. John's.

Not necessarily. Remember, a school can only move to one of the scholarship divisions of the NCAA if it already has a sponsoring league in that division that will accept it as a new member. And it's possible that the fact that St. John's is a men-only school might be a complicating factor in SJU's wooing a potential new D2 or D1 league. The Johnnies might have to convince CSB to go along for the ride so that the two schools could move up in tandem.

Also, SJU doesn't have the attractive Twin Cities location that UST brings to the table. Don't discount that, because that could matter to a D1 or D2 league both for travel and for media purposes, although Collegeville versus St. Paul probably wouldn't matter as much in the eyes of the NSIC as it would for some other D2 or D1 league.

Nobody is satisfied with the current situation except those presidents who were determined to kick them out but I have a feeling there is more to the story that has little to do with football and athletics. The conference and the remaining schools have been dragged through the streets since the announcement was made and like everyone, I am surprised they have stayed silent. Those voters can't hide under the bed wringing their hands forever.  Somebody needs to talk.

I'm not so sure that that's true. Sometimes the smart move in a situation like this is to anticipate a truckload of bad PR, then make the move with a minimum of comment and just quietly ride out all of the opprobrium until the news cycle passes. All of the national media that covered Tomtoss has moved on; you won't find any ESPN talking heads tut-tutting the MIAC over the airwaves anymore. Now the league just has the local media with which to contend, and I suspect that the main angle of the Star Tribune and other Twin Cities media outlets will be about where St. Thomas is going rather than asking more questions about the league it's leaving.

All of the people interested in Tomtoss (e.g., the people who read and post on this board) no doubt want somebody from the league to talk, or somebody from one of the league's remaining schools. But that doesn't mean that the powers that be can't simply sweep it all under the bed that you've colorfully intimated that they're all hiding under. I suspect that their silence is part of their plan to do just that -- sweep it under the bed until Tomtoss fades into nothing more than a historical curiosity no different than when my own league (what's now called the CCIW) kicked out Wheaton in 1959 for being too good.

Now I don't think bottom teams in the MIAC need to forgo playoff aspirations in order to avoid St. Thomas, but couldn't the MIAC at least come up with some sort of round robin with teams at the top only playing teams at the bottom  every other year or few years?

That's actually the opposite of a round robin. In a round robin, everybody plays everybody else, without exception.

My guess is that if UST finds the funds they will move up trying to grow their brand.  If they do move up a division I could see SJU following them.  I think the move would be easier for St. John's.  I think the MIAC is fractured right now, and I still think it could dissolve.  Losing another school or two could be fatal to the conference.

A number of these — Carleton, St Olaf, St Mary's — profile as a better fit for the Midwest Conference anyway.

I don't think that those schools, or their MWC counterparts, would necessarily agree with you. The idea of adding schools that are four hours' distant from the nearest MWC outpost, and over seven hours away from the farthest, likely doesn't hold much appeal. It wasn't a big deal for the MWC to add Macalester for football, 'cause that's only one trip every other year for each school, and it's always on a weekend. I'm sure that Macalester has never been thrilled about all of the travel involved in being a MWC affiliate member for football, but, again, at least it's weekend travel -- and it's only one program that the Mac athletics department has to budget for the additional travel expenses involved.

Adding Carleton, St. Olaf, and Macalester to the MWC would mean lots of overnights in lots of different sports for MWC teams, especially for those from the three newcomer schools. And that rubs up against one of the reasons why some of the MWC schools were proponents of the D4 split proposed earlier in this decade; one of the governing principles of D3 is emphasizing locally-based intercollegiate sports, since missed time from the classroom or the library due to a long bus ride or a hotel overnight interferes with the academics-first ethos of D3, and some of the MWC schools and their high-powered-academics brethren across the country felt that D3 was moving away from that by letting travel get too out of hand. That's why one of the proposals for D4 was to have the new division run various regionally-based NCAA championships in each sport rather than a single national championship.

I'm not sure why you named St. Mary's. SMU is not a school that fits the institutional profile of the MWC.

[hazzben]

I'm guessing St. Cloud State would want no part of SJU (with or without CSB) joining the NSIC. Granted, that didn't keep USF out when Augustana had issues.

If the MIAC craziness continues and includes SJU they'd be a world of hurt. D2 or D1 don't look like good options for them, or even something they've ever expressed the slightest interest in pursuing. At least from what I've always heard. This is a school that loved telling how Gags won with "No Scholarships" long after they were done competing with other scholarship NAIA schools.

[formerd3db]

UST would be a much better fit in the ARC than going NAIA. The most realistic option would be the GPAC. Really brutal travel schedule, but they wouldn't be a shoe in to win that conference. Morningside might have a thing or two to say about it.

More importantly, it's an all-sports conference. Eighteen of UST's sports would be covered by joining the GPAC (although I agree that it's extremely doubtful that it will ever come to that). Only men's and women's hockey and men's and women's swimming would be left to find alternate conference homes.

For the record, the only two sports in which the ARC can't provide a home for the Tommies are men's and women's hockey.

Hmmm... ARC for everything except M&W Hockey which could affiliate with the WIAC)

NCHA is likely for hockey in the scenario.

Will the WIAC want to take a private school from MN that has shown to be a power?  It seems like more than a few people are worried about it.

Again, though, that's just one sport. Football is an outlier in terms of the scant number of Pool C berths that are available, because only about 53% of D3 schools have football programs. That essentially means that in football the Tommies would be one more big dog among several fighting over a single pork chop (although the addition of UST would be a boon to existing WIAC football teams in the sense that it would lessen their chronic problem of finding non-conference opponents). But in some of the other sports UST would be a totally useful addition to the WIAC.

Does the ARC want a power with more travel?  I am not sure.  St. Thomas would likely be a horrible fit in the UMAC, but it might make sense.  There probably isn't a perfect fit for St. Thomas at the D3 level.  I am still wondering if staying at the D3 level as an independent is possible.

Of course it's possible. The question is whether or not it's advisable. The bottom line is that becoming a D3 indie is a poor alternative for UST, for a host of reasons. As jknezek said, it's a terrible long-term option ... but even as a short-term solution it would be at best a serious and expensive inconvenience, and at worst could cause damage to Tommies sports as well. It would certainly blunt UST's momentum as an emerging D3 all-sports power.

Moving up is going to be expensive.  Does St. Thomas have the funding to move up a division?  It is going to take significant initial and ongoing financial commitments.

My guess is that if UST finds the funds they will move up trying to grow their brand.  If they do move up a division I could see SJU following them.  I think the move would be easier for St. John's.

Not necessarily. Remember, a school can only move to one of the scholarship divisions of the NCAA if it already has a sponsoring league in that division that will accept it as a new member. And it's possible that the fact that St. John's is a men-only school might be a complicating factor in SJU's wooing a potential new D2 or D1 league. The Johnnies might have to convince CSB to go along for the ride so that the two schools could move up in tandem.

Also, SJU doesn't have the attractive Twin Cities location that UST brings to the table. Don't discount that, because that could matter to a D1 or D2 league both for travel and for media purposes, although Collegeville versus St. Paul probably wouldn't matter as much in the eyes of the NSIC as it would for some other D2 or D1 league.

Nobody is satisfied with the current situation except those presidents who were determined to kick them out but I have a feeling there is more to the story that has little to do with football and athletics. The conference and the remaining schools have been dragged through the streets since the announcement was made and like everyone, I am surprised they have stayed silent. Those voters can't hide under the bed wringing their hands forever.  Somebody needs to talk.

I'm not so sure that that's true. Sometimes the smart move in a situation like this is to anticipate a truckload of bad PR, then make the move with a minimum of comment and just quietly ride out all of the opprobrium until the news cycle passes. All of the national media that covered Tomtoss has moved on; you won't find any ESPN talking heads tut-tutting the MIAC over the airwaves anymore. Now the league just has the local media with which to contend, and I suspect that the main angle of the Star Tribune and other Twin Cities media outlets will be about where St. Thomas is going rather than asking more questions about the league it's leaving.

All of the people interested in Tomtoss (e.g., the people who read and post on this board) no doubt want somebody from the league to talk, or somebody from one of the league's remaining schools. But that doesn't mean that the powers that be can't simply sweep it all under the bed that you've colorfully intimated that they're all hiding under. I suspect that their silence is part of their plan to do just that -- sweep it under the bed until Tomtoss fades into nothing more than a historical curiosity no different than when my own league (what's now called the CCIW) kicked out Wheaton in 1959 for being too good.

Now I don't think bottom teams in the MIAC need to forgo playoff aspirations in order to avoid St. Thomas, but couldn't the MIAC at least come up with some sort of round robin with teams at the top only playing teams at the bottom  every other year or few years?

That's actually the opposite of a round robin. In a round robin, everybody plays everybody else, without exception.

My guess is that if UST finds the funds they will move up trying to grow their brand.  If they do move up a division I could see SJU following them.  I think the move would be easier for St. John's.  I think the MIAC is fractured right now, and I still think it could dissolve.  Losing another school or two could be fatal to the conference.

A number of these — Carleton, St Olaf, St Mary's — profile as a better fit for the Midwest Conference anyway.

I don't think that those schools, or their MWC counterparts, would necessarily agree with you. The idea of adding schools that are four hours' distant from the nearest MWC outpost, and over seven hours away from the farthest, likely doesn't hold much appeal. It wasn't a big deal for the MWC to add Macalester for football, 'cause that's only one trip every other year for each school, and it's always on a weekend. I'm sure that Macalester has never been thrilled about all of the travel involved in being a MWC affiliate member for football, but, again, at least it's weekend travel -- and it's only one program that the Mac athletics department has to budget for the additional travel expenses involved.

Adding Carleton, St. Olaf, and Macalester to the MWC would mean lots of overnights in lots of different sports for MWC teams, especially for those from the three newcomer schools. And that rubs up against one of the reasons why some of the MWC schools were proponents of the D4 split proposed earlier in this decade; one of the governing principles of D3 is emphasizing locally-based intercollegiate sports, since missed time from the classroom or the library due to a long bus ride or a hotel overnight interferes with the academics-first ethos of D3, and some of the MWC schools and their high-powered-academics brethren across the country felt that D3 was moving away from that by letting travel get too out of hand. That's why one of the proposals for D4 was to have the new division run various regionally-based NCAA championships in each sport rather than a single national championship.

I'm not sure why you named St. Mary's. SMU is not a school that fits the institutional profile of the MWC.

Come on, Gregory. Your #4 paragraph is the coward's way out and you know it  Of course it is their prerogative to do it that way, however, if that is truly the case (and none of us know really know that at this point as we are all speculating), then shame on the presidents.  This entire thing, as hazzben has appropriately said, has been absurd. 

[formerd3db]

Hey Pat:
In your article regarding the announcement about this involuntary departure of UST, you mentioned this has somewhat not occurred since 1959-60 when Wheaton left. Might not this also be compared to our MIAA back in 1960 when Hillsdale left the conference rather than be thrown out by the presidents over the dispute about post-season bowl games?  Hillsdale, then under the late legendary coach Muddy Waters (later first HC coach of DII Saginaw Valley State and later Michigan State University HC in the early 1980s) had been going to some post-season bowl games, including the Mineral Water Bowl and had played schools such as Iowa State back then.  Of course, this is not the exact same situation as St. Thomas, although there is a somewhat slightly similar underlying theme.  Just curious as to your thoughts.

[Gregory Sager]

Come on, Gregory. Your #4 paragraph is the coward's way out and you know it

Why are you lashing out at me? I didn't say that I approved of their silence. I simply said that it was the smart move on their part, and that they didn't need to say anything more (and likely wouldn't) than the little that they'd already said.

In fact, I posted here right after the Tomtoss announcement that I wish they'd say something more.

[Mr.MIAC]

The media's reporting that Augsburg, Carleton, Hamline, Macalester, St. Mary's, and St. Olaf are promoting a new motto for the MIAC--Mediocribus Esse Unquam. Seems fitting...

[Texas Ole]

Not trying to defend what has happened but I think you might be right Texas Ole. If SJU + school moves, the MIAC is left with a messy situation. I hope that the Presidents considered this when they declared their potential votes and decided that maybe in this new scenario the MIAC has a better chance of survival vs. half the schools threatening to leave.

Nobody is satisfied with the current situation except those presidents who were determined to kick them out but I have a feeling there is more to the story that has little to do with football and athletics. The conference and the remaining schools have been dragged through the streets since the announcement was made and like everyone, I am surprised they have stayed silent. Those voters can't hide under the bed wringing their hands forever.  Somebody needs to talk.

My math has the MIAC losing its AQ status if it loses 3 more football schools or 2 more hockey schools.  My guess is St. Scholastica would be invited to join if that happens. 

We may soon find out how attached SJU is to St. Thomas and St. Ben's.  I could see SJU following St. Thomas with or without St. Ben's.  If they choose to move to D2 with the possibility of jumping to FCS I don't think finding a conference is going to be an issue.  They will have options.  They may have issues with the MNSCU schools not wanting private schools in their conference, but I think that issue would be worked out between the schools.  I think the bigger question regarding the NSIC is if they want to continue with such a large conference.

As for St. Olaf leaving the MIAC I really think that is what it started this process.  It was not a well kept secret that President Anderson preferred the Midwest Conference.  The problem is St. Olaf would be double the size of most schools in that conference.  Travel would also be an issue, but with a few schools making the move they could divide in to divisions which would help.  The conversations were very likely ongoing.  There were stories in the Star Tribune a few years ago about the Tommies leaving the MIAC.  I don't think one score was the issue.  St. Olaf was really bad for several years in football along with other sports.  You can only pin that one school, and it's in Northfield.  I could see the slaughter from 2 years ago accelerating the change, but it was coming.  There were two many issues that just couldn't be ignored.

As for the news cycle the MIAC could take a lesson from some other groups with bad news.  You publish this move on Friday afternoon.  That is news dump time.  It usually ends up getting ignored.  I've seen it by the Dallas Cowboys, and perfected by a school between DFW and Austin.  I think most of the other schools are choosing to remain silent.  There isn't much you can say to make you look better.  The absolute worst thing you can do is say something that would degrade St. Thomas.  The Tommies are gone, and it is time to move forward.  There are areas where the private schools work together, and you don't need to jeopardize those efforts.  You also don't want to do something that might effect your students ability to move to attend certain grad schools. 

[Texas Ole]

As for St. Thomas moving up a division.  It has been discussed before this year.  In 2005 the Tommies looked to leave the MIAC and D3 to pursue D1 hockey.  In May of 2016 the Star Tribune posed the question as to St. Thomas' future in the MIAC long before the 97-0 game.

https://www.minnpost.com/sports/2012/11/st-thomas-winning-division-iii-athletic-programs-happy-where-they-are/

http://www.startribune.com/st-thomas-is-dominating-the-miac-as-never-before/380666931/

[57Johnnie]

The media's reporting that Augsburg, Carleton, Hamline, Macalester, St. Mary's, and St. Olaf are promoting a new motto for the MIAC--Mediocribus Esse Unquam. Seems fitting...

I heard a rumor this morning that, in order to level the playing field, they are attempting to hire Diana Moon Glampers as 'Handicapper General'.

[gbpuckfan]

I just don't see the MWC as an option for UST or any of the others. Even the shortest trips would be quite long.

And, consider why SNC is leaving the MWC for the NACC. One reason: lower travel costs. Another: it recruits many more students (not just athletes) from the Milwaukee and Chicago areas than in places such as Galesburg, Jacksonville, Monmouth - so why play there, when you can play in the Chicago suburbs (where mom & dad can still see many of your games). I don't imagine many of the MWC schools recruit lots from Minnesota, so why pay more to play there?

[Gregory Sager]

Reposting:

1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Beloit, WI (Beloit)	4 hrs, 40 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Mount Vernon, IA (Cornell)	4 hrs, 25 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Grinnell, IA (Grinnell)	4 hrs, 10 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Jacksonville, IL (Illinois C.)	7 hrs, 50 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Galesburg, IL (Knox)	6 hrs, 10 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Lake Forest, IL (Lake Forest)	5 hrs, 50 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Appleton, WI (Lawrence)	4 hrs, 15 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Monmouth, IL (Monmouth)	6 hrs, 10 mins
1600 Grand Ave, St. Paul, MN to Ripon, WI (Ripon)	4 hrs, 10 mins
Northfield, MN to Beloit, WI (Beloit)	4 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Mount Vernon, IA (Cornell)	4 hrs
Northfield, MN to Grinnell, IA (Grinnell)	3 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Jacksonville, IL (Illinois C.)	7 hrs, 20 mins
Northfield, MN to Galesburg, IL (Knox)	5 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Lake Forest, IL (Lake Forest)	5 hrs, 50 mins
Northfield, MN to Appleton, WI (Lawrence)	4 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Monmouth, IL (Monmouth)	5 hrs, 40 mins
Northfield, MN to Ripon, WI (Ripon)	4 hrs, 10 mins

[formerd3db]

Come on, Gregory. Your #4 paragraph is the coward's way out and you know it

Why are you lashing out at me? I didn't say that I approved of their silence. I simply said that it was the smart move on their part, and that they didn't need to say anything more (and likely wouldn't) than the little that they'd already said.

In fact, I posted here right after the Tomtoss announcement that I wish they'd say something more.

It is not a smart move from an ethical standpoint any way one wants to cut it, Gregory. If you are suggesting it is from a media standpoint, that is precisely what is wrong in today's society, IMO and the opinion of many others.  You are better than that and you have shown that (taken the high road) in many other controversial issues/divergent issues in the past. I have always given you credit for the latter, even when you and I have had disagreement in opinions on issues.  Yes, while you didn't specifically say you approved of their silence, I get it that you were commenting/speculating on the situation in general.  However, I was simply saying that you should call them (the presidents) out on it, more than just saying that you"wish they'd say something more" as you mentioned you previously posted. Frankly, I was surprised at your response-you are usually much more detailed in presenting your opinion.   

P.S. BTW, for clarification, I wasn't calling YOU a coward, Gregory. Rather I was referring to the presidents for the way they presented this to the media as you correctly said.  My apologies if it came across that way. However, again, I was questioning and pushing on you for not going further in your comments/opinion on the general assessment of how the situation came out and also because you usually do. 

[Gregory Sager]

It is not a smart move from an ethical standpoint any way one wants to cut it, Gregory. If you are suggesting it is from a media standpoint, that is precisely what is wrong in today's society, IMO and the opinion of many others.  You are better than that and you have shown that (taken the high road) in many other controversial issues/divergent issues in the past. I have always given you credit for the latter, even when you and I have had disagreement in opinions on issues.  Yes, while you didn't specifically say you approved of their silence, I get it that you were commenting/speculating on the situation in general.  However, I was simply saying that you should call them (the presidents) out on it, more than just saying that you"wish they'd say something more" as you mentioned you previously posted. Frankly, I was surprised at your response-you are usually much more detailed in presenting your opinion.

I was as detailed as I cared to be. I said that it was a smart move in terms of dealing with the media to take the hit and keep a low profile until the news cycle moved on. But I've also said multiple times now on this board that I believe that the league and the presidents of its remaining schools are doing themselves a disservice by not communicating better with their constituencies over this issue. That's what public relations is for colleges and universities -- not just communicating their actions to the media or to the public at large, but to their stakeholders as well. The image of political maneuvering behind closed doors, the equivalent of the old smoke-filled rooms of yore, isn't a good look in this day and age, especially when it involves institutions to which people voluntarily give huge amounts of money. The media has gone past Tomtoss to find other subjects to fill newsprint, pixels, and airwave minutes, as the MIAC's leaders had hoped, but it remains to be seen whether the MIAC leaders' lack of transparency will or won't hurt their credibility with the people who really matter to those schools.

Maybe this silence really is part of the arrangement that they made with UST President Sullivan, and maybe it really is part of an attempt to let the Tommies exit gracefully. But we don't know that, which is the whole point. Given the drastic step that they've just taken, people are naturally going to assume the worst of them.

You're expecting me to rap their knuckles with a ruler, as if it's somehow incumbent upon me to do so. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to do that. I don't think it's my place to do so. Perhaps you feel qualified as an outsider to pass judgment on them. I don't. It's not my league, and, more importantly -- as hazzbeen and sfury have taken pains to point out to me -- I don't have all of the facts. And the silence of the league's officials and presidents means that all of the facts aren't likely to be forthcoming, either, at least not in the near future.

I think it's a rotten shame that UST doesn't have a league anymore, and I commiserate with Tommies fans over that, and I agree with Dave McHugh that kicking out a school for being too good at sports revives an ominous precedent that should've been left in its sixty-year slumber (although I don't necessarily agree with him that this could be the first domino to fall in a new D3 shakeup involving other schools upset about similar competitive imbalances in other leagues). I don't think that that's a healthy thing at all. But making pronouncements about right and wrong is not my place in this situation.

BTW, I don't appreciate being pilloried for my supposed lack of ethics with condescending statements such as "you are better than that".

[Pat Coleman]

Hey Pat:
In your article regarding the announcement about this involuntary departure of UST, you mentioned this has somewhat not occurred since 1959-60 when Wheaton left. Might not this also be compared to our MIAA back in 1960 when Hillsdale left the conference rather than be thrown out by the presidents over the dispute about post-season bowl games?  Hillsdale, then under the late legendary coach Muddy Waters (later first HC coach of DII Saginaw Valley State and later Michigan State University HC in the early 1980s) had been going to some post-season bowl games, including the Mineral Water Bowl and had played schools such as Iowa State back then.  Of course, this is not the exact same situation as St. Thomas, although there is a somewhat slightly similar underlying theme.  Just curious as to your thoughts.

It does sound familiar -- but as a D3 guy, Hillsdale who?