FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hazzben]

Two major factors bumped Bethel's numbers.

Success. We finally stopped losing close games and separated from the field a bit. Casual fans are more likely to come out and see a ranked team than a team already out of the race.

Hosting SJU and UST. Those were both big games, that drew big crowds. We'll lose that this year, we travel to Concordia as well. But if the team keeps trending up and is ranked, the numbers will still be solid.

Meanwhile, one of the numbers Shooter missed. Northern Sun attendance avg: 2,346

My best guess for why D2 numbers are so paltry ... you have campuses with a much higher percentage of commuter students. And it's an environment where the athletes really are pretty separate from the student body. That's a recipe for much less student body buy in. But it actually doesn't hold up well, given that the average attendance for a Division II game was 3,459 fans.

Meanwhile NW Missouri State averaged 7,100.
Pitt State averaged over 9,600.
And Grand Valley State averaged over 12,500 with total attendance topping 100,000!! That's impressive given there are multiple D1 schools in the state as well.

Given that the NSIC is probably a tick above the MIAA, I wonder why their numbers are so much lower. Is it as simple as colder games in late october driving down attendance numbers?

Coincidentally, this is a major argument against USTBench's old adage that D2 teams play in empty stadiums in rust belt towns with closed down tire factories. My guess is this is colored by his exposure to NSIC game day experiences. Clearly leagues like the MIAA are doing quite well.

[hazzben]

I'm a bit surprised we haven't heard more from UST regarding where they hope to land. I guess it's only been a few months, but it makes it appear that it's not as straightforward as some have assumed. The longer the uncertainty lingers, the harder it's going to be to recruit. It's one thing if they are jumping D2 and only playing one more MIAC season. It's another thing if we get into next Spring and answers still aren't forthcoming. Recruiting for next year can't be easy. If you're moving up, you need to go after bigger fish, and you need to use bigger bait (i.e. be able to tell those bigger fish they'll definitely be playing in the bigger pond). If you aren't moving up, you need to communicate that to recruits who would be solid for an elite D3 team, but might not be high on going through a division jump and all that this entails.

Any Tommie insiders have intel on even when they hope to make/announce a decision?

Obviously the most important factor is landing in the right spot. But dragging it out is far from ideal as well.

[AO]

Two major factors bumped Bethel's numbers.

Success. We finally stopped losing close games and separated from the field a bit. Casual fans are more likely to come out and see a ranked team than a team already out of the race.

Hosting SJU and UST. Those were both big games, that drew big crowds. We'll lose that this year, we travel to Concordia as well. But if the team keeps trending up and is ranked, the numbers will still be solid.

Meanwhile, one of the numbers Shooter missed. Northern Sun attendance avg: 2,346

My best guess for why D2 numbers are so paltry ... you have campuses with a much higher percentage of commuter students. And it's an environment where the athletes really are pretty separate from the student body. That's a recipe for much less student body buy in. But it actually doesn't hold up well, given that the average attendance for a Division II game was 3,459 fans.

Meanwhile NW Missouri State averaged 7,100.
Pitt State averaged over 9,600.
And Grand Valley State averaged over 12,500 with total attendance topping 100,000!! That's impressive given there are multiple D1 schools in the state as well.

Given that the NSIC is probably a tick above the MIAA, I wonder why their numbers are so much lower. Is it as simple as colder games in late october driving down attendance numbers?

Coincidentally, this is a major argument against USTBench's old adage that D2 teams play in empty stadiums in rust belt towns with closed down tire factories. My guess is this is colored by his exposure to NSIC game day experiences. Clearly leagues like the MIAA are doing quite well.

Grand Valley is the major exception in their conference.  The cold weather is definitely a massive factor in driving down attendance in Minnesota with late October/November games.  While I'd like to see St. Thomas rip up the track and put in another 5000 seats at O'Shaugnessy, I really don't think they would need to do that for the Northern Sun or an FCS conference. 

It is somewhat surprising we haven't had better rumors for the Tommies destination.  If they really wanted to join the WIAC I think we'd have heard more about that.

[USTBench]

Two major factors bumped Bethel's numbers.

Success. We finally stopped losing close games and separated from the field a bit. Casual fans are more likely to come out and see a ranked team than a team already out of the race.

Hosting SJU and UST. Those were both big games, that drew big crowds. We'll lose that this year, we travel to Concordia as well. But if the team keeps trending up and is ranked, the numbers will still be solid.

Meanwhile, one of the numbers Shooter missed. Northern Sun attendance avg: 2,346

My best guess for why D2 numbers are so paltry ... you have campuses with a much higher percentage of commuter students. And it's an environment where the athletes really are pretty separate from the student body. That's a recipe for much less student body buy in. But it actually doesn't hold up well, given that the average attendance for a Division II game was 3,459 fans.

Meanwhile NW Missouri State averaged 7,100.
Pitt State averaged over 9,600.
And Grand Valley State averaged over 12,500 with total attendance topping 100,000!! That's impressive given there are multiple D1 schools in the state as well.

Given that the NSIC is probably a tick above the MIAA, I wonder why their numbers are so much lower. Is it as simple as colder games in late october driving down attendance numbers?

Coincidentally, this is a major argument against USTBench's old adage that D2 teams play in empty stadiums in rust belt towns with closed down tire factories. My guess is this is colored by his exposure to NSIC game day experiences. Clearly leagues like the MIAA are doing quite well.

GVSU, NWMSU and Pitt State are total outliers, fueled by sustained success over multiple decades that started in D2's heyday when UND, NDSU, SDSU and USD were still around. GVSU is the only GLIAC member in the Top 30 of attendance that I noticed. The MIAA's strong attendance is due to the fact that it's the strongest D2 conference overall, with 5 or 6 traditional powers that gave the NCC all it could handle back in its glory days. I think that bolsters its attendance along staying largely in-tact for several decades. Outside of a few HBCUs (whose large attendance figures have just as much to do with the marching band as the football team) and the traditional Texas powers, I'd say I'm largely correct.

I think GVSU could easily make an FCS transition, but is okay with where it's at for a few reasons: (1) a geographically friendly conference; (2) it recognizes there is not much of an added benefit in going the way of Eastern Michigan, Western Michigan or Central Michigan. I think GVSU is more homogeneous than those schools and would probably do better attendance-wise, but why risk it at the cost of 20+ extra scholarships and the loss of easy travel?

All that said, this is why it's such tough spot for UST. You're adding the cost of athletic scholarships, potentially Cost of Attendance stipends, increased travel, but little-to-no added (or possibly less) revenue during the transition period. There is not one alum, student or faculty member that is going to view a game against Minot State or UM-Crookston with any added level of prestige or mystique than just playing Augsburg or Hamline. This is why I think there is probably some truth to the rumor UST is pushing for a waiver so it can begin a transition to D1 as soon as possible. The Summit and MVFC would love a footprint in the Twin Cities metro and the WCHA is already courting UST in women's hockey.

I think it's a little overblown to put such a big emphasis on how UST isn't up to snuff on facilities when you do a legitimate comparison, top-to-bottom, of the conferences I just mentioned. There is some tweaking to do, sure, but UST wouldn't be even close to the worst.

[USTBench]

Two major factors bumped Bethel's numbers.

Success. We finally stopped losing close games and separated from the field a bit. Casual fans are more likely to come out and see a ranked team than a team already out of the race.

Hosting SJU and UST. Those were both big games, that drew big crowds. We'll lose that this year, we travel to Concordia as well. But if the team keeps trending up and is ranked, the numbers will still be solid.

Meanwhile, one of the numbers Shooter missed. Northern Sun attendance avg: 2,346

My best guess for why D2 numbers are so paltry ... you have campuses with a much higher percentage of commuter students. And it's an environment where the athletes really are pretty separate from the student body. That's a recipe for much less student body buy in. But it actually doesn't hold up well, given that the average attendance for a Division II game was 3,459 fans.

Meanwhile NW Missouri State averaged 7,100.
Pitt State averaged over 9,600.
And Grand Valley State averaged over 12,500 with total attendance topping 100,000!! That's impressive given there are multiple D1 schools in the state as well.

Given that the NSIC is probably a tick above the MIAA, I wonder why their numbers are so much lower. Is it as simple as colder games in late october driving down attendance numbers?

Coincidentally, this is a major argument against USTBench's old adage that D2 teams play in empty stadiums in rust belt towns with closed down tire factories. My guess is this is colored by his exposure to NSIC game day experiences. Clearly leagues like the MIAA are doing quite well.

Grand Valley is the major exception in their conference.  The cold weather factor is definitely a massive factor in driving down attendance in Minnesota with late October/November games.  While I'd like to see St. Thomas rip up the track and put in another 5000 seats at O'Shaugnessy, I really don't think they would need to do that for the Northern Sun or an FCS conference. 

It is somewhat surprising we haven't had better rumors for the Tommies destination.  If they really wanted to join the WIAC I think we'd have heard more about that.

From what I've heard the WIAC is Plan C. I think the major reason confirmed intel isn't coming out is that in-order to seek a NCAA waiver you have to do more than explain that you were kicked out for winning all of the time and asking politely.

If UST is serious about pitching the NCAA they'll need to show an athletics master plan that includes a list of varsity sports UST intends on competing in (this will definitely mean cuts to some existing programs), conference affiliations, fundraising projections, facility upgrades/additions, a budget, and coaches with experience and competence navigating the scholarship game. The latter may be the most difficult for UST as they are rather notorious in hiring in-house. Caruso knows the landscape of scholarship football quite well, but some coaches have no experience outside of UST.

[GoldandBlueBU]

I think it's a little overblown to put such a big emphasis on how UST isn't up to snuff on facilities when you do a legitimate comparison, top-to-bottom, of the conferences I just mentioned. There is some tweaking to do, sure, but UST wouldn't be even close to the worst.

Agreed - UST isn't out of line with UMD - they (UMD) actually have a smaller seating capacity, and have still managed to be a national power in division 2.

It's interesting to me that you said that WIAC is plan C?  I'm a bit surprised to hear that.  I'd have guessed they'd prefer staying D3 over going to D2. (assuming D1 is plan A).

[USTBench]

I think it's a little overblown to put such a big emphasis on how UST isn't up to snuff on facilities when you do a legitimate comparison, top-to-bottom, of the conferences I just mentioned. There is some tweaking to do, sure, but UST wouldn't be even close to the worst.

Agreed - UST isn't out of line with UMD - they (UMD) actually have a smaller seating capacity, and have still managed to be a national power in division 2.

It's interesting to me that you said that WIAC is plan C?  I'm a bit surprised to hear that.  I'd have guessed they'd prefer staying D3 over going to D2. (assuming D1 is plan A).

From what I hear, it's plan C because it's not a viable long-term solution and it's not upwardly mobile. Since their hand was forced I think the motto is onward and upward.

[MadRedFan]

Two major factors bumped Bethel's numbers.

Success. We finally stopped losing close games and separated from the field a bit. Casual fans are more likely to come out and see a ranked team than a team already out of the race.

Hosting SJU and UST. Those were both big games, that drew big crowds. We'll lose that this year, we travel to Concordia as well. But if the team keeps trending up and is ranked, the numbers will still be solid.

Meanwhile, one of the numbers Shooter missed. Northern Sun attendance avg: 2,346

My best guess for why D2 numbers are so paltry ... you have campuses with a much higher percentage of commuter students. And it's an environment where the athletes really are pretty separate from the student body. That's a recipe for much less student body buy in. But it actually doesn't hold up well, given that the average attendance for a Division II game was 3,459 fans.

Meanwhile NW Missouri State averaged 7,100.
Pitt State averaged over 9,600.
And Grand Valley State averaged over 12,500 with total attendance topping 100,000!! That's impressive given there are multiple D1 schools in the state as well.

Given that the NSIC is probably a tick above the MIAA, I wonder why their numbers are so much lower. Is it as simple as colder games in late october driving down attendance numbers?

Coincidentally, this is a major argument against USTBench's old adage that D2 teams play in empty stadiums in rust belt towns with closed down tire factories. My guess is this is colored by his exposure to NSIC game day experiences. Clearly leagues like the MIAA are doing quite well.

GVSU, NWMSU and Pitt State are total outliers, fueled by sustained success over multiple decades that started in D2's heyday when UND, NDSU, SDSU and USD were still around. GVSU is the only GLIAC member in the Top 30 of attendance that I noticed. The MIAA's strong attendance is due to the fact that it's the strongest D2 conference overall, with 5 or 6 traditional powers that gave the NCC all it could handle back in its glory days. I think that bolsters its attendance along staying largely in-tact for several decades. Outside of a few HBCUs (whose large attendance figures have just as much to do with the marching band as the football team) and the traditional Texas powers, I'd say I'm largely correct.

I think GVSU could easily make an FCS transition, but is okay with where it's at for a few reasons: (1) a geographically friendly conference; (2) it recognizes there is not much of an added benefit in going the way of Eastern Michigan, Western Michigan or Central Michigan. I think GVSU is more homogeneous than those schools and would probably do better attendance-wise, but why risk it at the cost of 20+ extra scholarships and the loss of easy travel?

All that said, this is why it's such tough spot for UST. You're adding the cost of athletic scholarships, potentially Cost of Attendance stipends, increased travel, but little-to-no added (or possibly less) revenue during the transition period. There is not one alum, student or faculty member that is going to view a game against Minot State or UM-Crookston with any added level of prestige or mystique than just playing Augsburg or Hamline. This is why I think there is probably some truth to the rumor UST is pushing for a waiver so it can begin a transition to D1 as soon as possible. The Summit and MVFC would love a footprint in the Twin Cities metro and the WCHA is already courting UST in women's hockey.

I think it's a little overblown to put such a big emphasis on how UST isn't up to snuff on facilities when you do a legitimate comparison, top-to-bottom, of the conferences I just mentioned. There is some tweaking to do, sure, but UST wouldn't be even close to the worst.

I don't disagree with the overall theories, but you seem to be implying the "directional" Michigan schools are FCS - they are members of FBS Mid American Conference. Don't think there are any FCS schools in Michigan.

[Mr.MIAC]

I think it's a little overblown to put such a big emphasis on how UST isn't up to snuff on facilities when you do a legitimate comparison, top-to-bottom, of the conferences I just mentioned. There is some tweaking to do, sure, but UST wouldn't be even close to the worst.

Agreed - UST isn't out of line with UMD - they (UMD) actually have a smaller seating capacity, and have still managed to be a national power in division 2.

It's interesting to me that you said that WIAC is plan C?  I'm a bit surprised to hear that.  I'd have guessed they'd prefer staying D3 over going to D2. (assuming D1 is plan A).

From what I hear, it's plan C because it's not a viable long-term solution and it's not upwardly mobile. Since their hand was forced I think the motto is onward and upward.

Some reasonably credible sources have told me that part of the push for UST to go DI is coming from alumni with deep connections in pro athletics. Apparently there are some behind the scenes fundraising talks happening amongst these alumni and potential donors heretofore unaffiliated with UST. Maybe the radio silence is necessary for these talks to progress.

[OzJohnnie]

Perhaps UST's scorched-earth media campaign against the MIAC needs a little radio silence to let their potential new partners get comfortable with UST as a colleague, collaborative and all that.

Or, maybe as bench indicated, there will need to be wholesale restructuring of the athletic department in the event that they move up and staff comms fueled by media rumours won't be helpful.

Or, perhaps UST are pursuing all three (or other) options simultaneously and it does no good to let your date know you're also dancing with someone else. And that you like the other better.

Or, maybe UST only have one option on the dance card and they don't want that setting in before they have a chance to shop around for someone prettier.

Lots of reasons for radio silence.

Maybe they are just cowards like the MIAC administrators and are too gutless to face the public.

[USTBench]

Two major factors bumped Bethel's numbers.

Success. We finally stopped losing close games and separated from the field a bit. Casual fans are more likely to come out and see a ranked team than a team already out of the race.

Hosting SJU and UST. Those were both big games, that drew big crowds. We'll lose that this year, we travel to Concordia as well. But if the team keeps trending up and is ranked, the numbers will still be solid.

Meanwhile, one of the numbers Shooter missed. Northern Sun attendance avg: 2,346

My best guess for why D2 numbers are so paltry ... you have campuses with a much higher percentage of commuter students. And it's an environment where the athletes really are pretty separate from the student body. That's a recipe for much less student body buy in. But it actually doesn't hold up well, given that the average attendance for a Division II game was 3,459 fans.

Meanwhile NW Missouri State averaged 7,100.
Pitt State averaged over 9,600.
And Grand Valley State averaged over 12,500 with total attendance topping 100,000!! That's impressive given there are multiple D1 schools in the state as well.

Given that the NSIC is probably a tick above the MIAA, I wonder why their numbers are so much lower. Is it as simple as colder games in late october driving down attendance numbers?

Coincidentally, this is a major argument against USTBench's old adage that D2 teams play in empty stadiums in rust belt towns with closed down tire factories. My guess is this is colored by his exposure to NSIC game day experiences. Clearly leagues like the MIAA are doing quite well.

GVSU, NWMSU and Pitt State are total outliers, fueled by sustained success over multiple decades that started in D2's heyday when UND, NDSU, SDSU and USD were still around. GVSU is the only GLIAC member in the Top 30 of attendance that I noticed. The MIAA's strong attendance is due to the fact that it's the strongest D2 conference overall, with 5 or 6 traditional powers that gave the NCC all it could handle back in its glory days. I think that bolsters its attendance along staying largely in-tact for several decades. Outside of a few HBCUs (whose large attendance figures have just as much to do with the marching band as the football team) and the traditional Texas powers, I'd say I'm largely correct.

I think GVSU could easily make an FCS transition, but is okay with where it's at for a few reasons: (1) a geographically friendly conference; (2) it recognizes there is not much of an added benefit in going the way of Eastern Michigan, Western Michigan or Central Michigan. I think GVSU is more homogeneous than those schools and would probably do better attendance-wise, but why risk it at the cost of 20+ extra scholarships and the loss of easy travel?

All that said, this is why it's such tough spot for UST. You're adding the cost of athletic scholarships, potentially Cost of Attendance stipends, increased travel, but little-to-no added (or possibly less) revenue during the transition period. There is not one alum, student or faculty member that is going to view a game against Minot State or UM-Crookston with any added level of prestige or mystique than just playing Augsburg or Hamline. This is why I think there is probably some truth to the rumor UST is pushing for a waiver so it can begin a transition to D1 as soon as possible. The Summit and MVFC would love a footprint in the Twin Cities metro and the WCHA is already courting UST in women's hockey.

I think it's a little overblown to put such a big emphasis on how UST isn't up to snuff on facilities when you do a legitimate comparison, top-to-bottom, of the conferences I just mentioned. There is some tweaking to do, sure, but UST wouldn't be even close to the worst.

I don't disagree with the overall theories, but you seem to be implying the "directional" Michigan schools are FCS - they are members of FBS Mid American Conference. Don't think there are any FCS schools in Michigan.

Wasn't meant to be implied, but every MAC school night as well be FCS because they couldn't get a single team into the semifinals of the FCS tournament, and I would bet the farm on that. The point was, observing those schools wallow in obscurity in front of an empty stadium has probably been a sign to GVSU that they're fine where they're at.

[GoldandBlueBU]

Or, perhaps UST are pursuing all three (or other) options simultaneously and it does no good to let your date know you're also dancing with someone else. And that you like the other better.

I had that thought as well - seems very realistic.  Why not try to cultivate all three options, and then choose what you want based on aspirations / best fit of the ones that are willing to take you?

They almost have to do it that way, given their relatively short transition time from MIAC to whatever the future is, don't they?  If they spend the first 6-8 months of the post-MIAC breakup announcement 100% pursuing D1, and that doesn't work out, then they're behind on trying to get the NSIC or WIAC relationship to work.

[hazzben]

Or, perhaps UST are pursuing all three (or other) options simultaneously and it does no good to let your date know you’re also dancing with someone else. And that you like the other better.

I had that thought as well - seems very realistic.  Why not try to cultivate all three options, and then choose what you want based on aspirations / best fit of the ones that are willing to take you?

They almost have to do it that way, given their relatively short transition time from MIAC to whatever the future is, don't they?  If they spend the first 6-8 months of the post-MIAC breakup announcement 100% pursuing D1, and that doesn't work out, then they're behind on trying to get the NSIC or WIAC relationship to work.

I think there's something to this, but I don't think it's that they like all girls equally (this is a fun analogy btw).

Option 1 - Dating the Upperclassmen Model (aka, waiver straight to D1): This is super sexy and would be a major PR coup. But right now, UST is the 'late bloomer' nerd who actually has a good physique and above average looks, when you strip away the tucked in polo and glasses. It's a risky, ballsy move by the late blooming nerd. It could blow up in his face, with the whole cafeteria laughing at him for even trying to land a date to the prom with this hotty...the upside is huge though. And to the astute model, this is the kid who might end up a surgeon, or a unicorn tech founder, etc. But that's not guaranteed either. The nerd will have to navigate this flawlessly, needs some help from connections in the cool crowd, and needs a bit of a makeover (or at least a mockup of what he'd look like post makeover and post surgical residency).

Option 2 - Dating the fellow Sophomore Cheerleader (aka, going D2) - She's cute, not super model cute, but cute. She's also got a rep for being a little trashy, but the 'high potential nerd' is ok with that, because he's only dating her as a stepping stone for building street cred and his later play at landing the upperclassmen model. She's recently broken up with her boyfriend and word is she's looking (i.e. Augustana is leaving the NSIC). She's not as smart or as wholesome as nerd's last girlfriend (who dumped him for weird reasons). She's typical HS hot, nice bod, wears a bit too much makeup, and to the uninformed is a clear step up from the ex (the masses who view D2 as way superior to D3). The problem is she's been around, isn't overly smart, and while she'll be a boost to the nerd's immediate street cred, she's not really marriage material. If this plays out, nerd secretly hopes he doesn't get her pregnant and stuck with her for the next 20+ years. Though if this happens nerd will play it off like he was always smitten with sophomore cheerleader and wanted nothing more than to get her preggos and have to shotgun wedding this action.

Option 3 - Dating cuter, but less intelligent friend of nerd ex-girlfriend (aka, going to the WIAC) - Nerd always felt a bit superior to his ex (she was a fellow 'cuter than people realize nerd'), or so some of her friends perceived. He was shocked when she dumped him, but was glad she allowed them to play it off as mutual parting of ways. In reality, she was cute, super smart, and they had history and great chemistry. She was massively underrated, and in hindsight, the nerd is wishing he'd treated her better, but he can't admit this now. Also, all the parents realize that the ex is really the diamond in the rough. Some have dated/married the model, some have dated/married the cheerleader, some have dated/married the cuter, less intelligent friend. A select few dated the model or the cheerleader, saw the light, and dumped her for the 'secretly cute nerd.' This latter group in particular realizes how happy they've been with their life since this move, even though it ran against the grain of success. These parents wish they could talk sense into the nerd and his ex, but kids will be kids. If nerd is forced to date the cuter, less intelligent friend there is some upside. When things click, they really click, it's just not as natural & consistent it was before (i.e. winning the WIAC in all sports isn't as easy as winning the MIAC). It's also undeniable that this isn't as natural a fit as the ex, but the nerd got bigger than his britches, or so some of the ex's family perceived. So now nerd has to make lemonade out of lemons and pretend he's ok with the fact that it's a more stable relationship, but it's kinda weird culturally and he always feels a bit like an outsider with her blue collar family. But there's no way the nerd will ever admit this was option 3, and that he secretly made a play for both the cheerleader and the model, but was turned down. He's also really glad that although the 'cuter, less intelligent friend of his ex' knows he wanted other cuter girls, she's just happy to have him in the end.

NB: Nerd's conscience knows that 'cuter, but less intelligent friend of nerd ex-girlfriend' is actually plenty intelligent in her own way, she just has different academic interests. Nerd's conscience means no offense to 'cuter, but less intelligent friend of nerd ex-girlfriend' (aka the WIAC) and is only doing this as a tongue in cheek analogy to UST's secret 'dance card.' Meanwhile, anything that appears offensive regarding D2, absolutely was intentional by nerd's conscience.

Also, this was way too much fun.

[USTBench]

Hazzben,

I enjoyed this analogy very much and found it a good use of your Thursday morning.

Bench

[jamtod]

hazzben +1 for infinity days.

I think some of the downsides of Option 1 and Option 2 could be fleshed out a bit more though. They will both make it difficult for him to spend time with his old best frenemy. And he'll likely have to shed a few pounds before the first date with either of them (ie, drop some sports)