FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[OzJohnnie]

We will have to agree to disagree then

Agreed.

[Pat Coleman]

I think we've been given what amounts to confirmation that not all results and ranked opponents are equal.  Winning (or losing) against a team ranked first or second in their region is not identical to winning or losing to a team ranked ninth or tenth.  There's not a codified, perfectly graduated scale for that, but I think past chairs have been clear on that point.

Then I feel better about it. I just get annoyed to see the simplistic comparisons showing X team as 2-0 against RRO as if that is actually meaningful on its own.

Maybe we don't do a good enough job of getting into the weeds when digging around in results against ranked opponents.  There is definitely more to it, at least I believe there should be, than simply counting wins and losses against other teams on the rankings lists. 

I actually think we do a good job of using RRO the way the committee does. But what we don't do is have a great shorthand to display it, so we end up saying "1-1 vs. RRO" when in print. But in reality, we do split those hairs when doing our mock selections.

[Redtooth]

Hold on-I'm not saying sju should be 2 or 3 -the argument is vs another one loss team. I get that you are dumped in with other one loss teams-I think they question is wins over bethel and ust are worth more than a win over Linfield-based on where they sit. And is Hansen's metric better.
Pat made an interesting statement about the last two games for Redlands-but sju has hamline this week-bottom.

56321, your point here is what I tried (poorly) to make earlier....it appears based on how the first rankings came out that an 8-0 SJU would have likely not been on the #2 line.  Wartburg with a fairly weak schedule (best win over a 4-4 Simpson) occupies that slot followed by Chapman (see my previous comments) then Redlands (with a loss to Chapman)....on the point of primary criteria that Wally mentions- that is at the heart of my criticism.  If the primary criteria was so easy to define there would be no debate on regional rankings and playoff seeding....take a look at what the D3football staff said in the notes about the South Region.  I can also attest to this as a former administrator at a West Region school that (we believed at the time) would be in consideration/conversation for a Pool C (with a win in week 10)...only to find out when the last Regional Rankings came out that we weren't even on the board in the Top 10.  I would prefer the Hansen method or something more similar to what FCS does (with conference strength playing a huge factor).

[wally_wabash]

I think we've been given what amounts to confirmation that not all results and ranked opponents are equal.  Winning (or losing) against a team ranked first or second in their region is not identical to winning or losing to a team ranked ninth or tenth.  There's not a codified, perfectly graduated scale for that, but I think past chairs have been clear on that point.

Then I feel better about it. I just get annoyed to see the simplistic comparisons showing X team as 2-0 against RRO as if that is actually meaningful on its own.

Maybe we don't do a good enough job of getting into the weeds when digging around in results against ranked opponents.  There is definitely more to it, at least I believe there should be, than simply counting wins and losses against other teams on the rankings lists. 

I actually think we do a good job of using RRO the way the committee does. But what we don't do is have a great shorthand to display it, so we end up saying "1-1 vs. RRO" when in print. But in reality, we do split those hairs when doing our mock selections.

You said what I meant better than I did.   

jamtod-

I did a Pool C mock today over here which I hope is a good example of how I, as a hypothetical committee member, would dig into results against ranked opponents beyond just counting wins and losses. 

[Pat Coleman]

56321, your point here is what I tried (poorly) to make earlier....it appears based on how the first rankings came out that an 8-0 SJU would have likely not been on the #2 line.

Hypothetical Unbeaten St. John's: 8-0 record, .569 SOS, win vs. West No. 6 Bethel, advanced to the national quarterfinals last year
Literal Unbeaten Wartburg: 8-0 record, .565 SOS, no results of any kind vs. regionally ranked opponents, lost in the first round last year

HUSJ definitely has the better resume.

[Retired Old Rat]

jamtod-

I did a Pool C mock today over here which I hope is a good example of how I, as a hypothetical committee member, would dig into results against ranked opponents beyond just counting wins and losses.

Awesome job Wally. You explain things very clearly.

[DuffMan]

Win the game and you did what you showed up at the stadium to do. Lose and you failed. Period... Ya'll got dumped into the criteria bucket with the loss because there are a lot of 1 loss teams.

100% agreed.  SJU may very well be the #1 or #2 team in the West, but they went into the Concordia game unprepared and uninspired, and they now have to deal with the consequences.  All the grumblings and the "but we beat Bethel and St. Thomas" arguments don't mean much when you have a lackadaisical loss to a team that you should have beaten handily.  You have to find a way to win.  Period.

The good part about the D3 system is that if SJU wins out, they'll have the opportunity to prove how good they may be.  Sure, it may mean road games, but road games are more fun.

[sjusection105]

Win the game and you did what you showed up at the stadium to do. Lose and you failed. Period... Ya'll got dumped into the criteria bucket with the loss because there are a lot of 1 loss teams.

100% agreed.  SJU may very well be the #1 or #2 team in the West, but they went into the Concordia game unprepared and uninspired, and they now have to deal with the consequences.  All the grumblings and the "but we beat Bethel and St. Thomas" arguments don't mean much when you have a lackadaisical loss to a team that you should have beaten handily.  You have to find a way to win.  Period.

The 2000 squad did OK being road warriors. Now the 2019 squad has to figure out who they are with potentially no home games.

[retagent]

I like the Johnnies chances on the road in warm weather (Chapman or Redlands). They might relish the So Cal weather.

[SaintsFAN]

Win the game and you did what you showed up at the stadium to do. Lose and you failed. Period... Ya'll got dumped into the criteria bucket with the loss because there are a lot of 1 loss teams.

100% agreed.  SJU may very well be the #1 or #2 team in the West, but they went into the Concordia game unprepared and uninspired, and they now have to deal with the consequences.  All the grumblings and the "but we beat Bethel and St. Thomas" arguments don't mean much when you have a lackadaisical loss to a team that you should have beaten handily.  You have to find a way to win.  Period.

The good part about the D3 system is that if SJU wins out, they'll have the opportunity to prove how good they may be.  Sure, it may mean road games, but road games are more fun.

I may make the trip to SoCal wearing Johnnie red. 

I was NOT coming back to Collegville in December after the weather last November.... and keep in mind, I'm in Boston.   Boston gets its own crappy weather in the form of Nor'Easters.

[SagatagSam]

Win the game and you did what you showed up at the stadium to do. Lose and you failed. Period... Ya'll got dumped into the criteria bucket with the loss because there are a lot of 1 loss teams.

100% agreed.  SJU may very well be the #1 or #2 team in the West, but they went into the Concordia game unprepared and uninspired, and they now have to deal with the consequences.  All the grumblings and the "but we beat Bethel and St. Thomas" arguments don't mean much when you have a lackadaisical loss to a team that you should have beaten handily.  You have to find a way to win.  Period.

The 2000 squad did OK being road warriors. Now the 2019 squad has to figure out who they are with potentially no home games.

I would imagine that Tom Linnemann (QB on the '00 SJU national runner-up squad) will be giving Jackson Erdmann plenty of advice on having to go on the road for the playoffs.

[GoldandBlueBU]

I like the Johnnies chances on the road in warm weather (Chapman or Redlands). They might relish the So Cal weather.

I agree with that...not that SJU can't win in cold / wet weather, but if I'm an SJU fan, I'd really like their chances with Erdmann slinging it in ideal conditions.

[DuffMan]

I was NOT coming back to Collegville in December after the weather last November.... and keep in mind, I'm in Boston.

The weather for that Thomas More game was brutal!!!  You're a trooper. 

[d-train]

The 2000 squad did OK being road warriors. Now the 2019 squad has to figure out who they are with potentially no home games.

I would imagine that Tom Linnemann (QB on the '00 SJU national runner-up squad) will be giving Jackson Erdmann plenty of advice on having to go on the road for the playoffs.

Experience is a key part of that. I think Linnemann was a 7th year senior in '00, right? Then Keating took over for 8 years or so. 

[DuffMan]

Whoa!  Shots fired!