FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[MUC57]

Just twist the cap off,no corkscrew needed

... or punch a hole in the box

Now, both of those are funny. 🍷 👍 😀

[AO]

Certainly, you guys know much more about the situation at SCSU than I do and I do not know of the particulars regarding the Title IX lawsuit you mention they lost. Yet, just a few general comments here, if I may.  First, I am always sad when a college or university decides to eliminate their football program, although I understand there are a variety of factors that always weigh into and end up determining that final decision. And if they were struggling with only offering a small number (20) of full scholarships to be split among the 97 players on the roster, certainly providing the NCAA Div II limit of 35 to be split was out of the question.  However, IMO, and what I've seen from situations similar to this in the past with state university DII schools here in Michigan i.e. Wayne State and Michigan Tech as well as a school like Davenport University, which just started their program, initially one year in NAIA and now DII in the GLAIC, there is always a way to make it work.  Even Ferris State, which has DI hockey and DII football as you know has been able to do it, and their attendance, as well as the others in that league for football is not more than the "historical average" as you have mentioned and is essentially in-line with what we are seeing for college football attendance in this age (a decline at all levels, even though some schools have some huge single game attendance for their big games of the season.

From what you have shared, it sounds to me like that SCSU simply decided that football was of non-essential importance to the university despite the usual "difficult decision" comments from the administration/athletic administration as are always stated in these situations and, as such, that they've decided to pin the name on the DI hockey program as well as even more support for the women's athletic programs there-11 women's to 7 for men including the new men's soccer program in place of football (of course, I realize there is much more that is factored into that with regard to the women's programs and what is required to meet that as you outlined.)   

But again, I still believe if they really wanted to, a solution could be worked out.  As you probably recall, this happened back in the early 2000s at Michigan Tech when the administration eliminated football.  A huge outcry and backlash occurred and within 3 months, alumni (football and otherwise) raised over 3 million dollars for football and it was reinstated.  Tech soon after won a part of the GLIAC title and even played in Michigan Stadium against Grand Valley in what remains as the highest attendance for an NCAA DII football game to date (some 51,000.)  Granted, Michigan Tech has not had much success in football on the field in recent years, however, the program has been and is sustainable and, to my knowledge, there is no indication that there is danger of it being discontinued.  Similarly, Wayne State was going to drop football way back in 1983, although that was obviously a different era, yet the circumstances similar-at that time, they only offered 7 full football scholarships. Yet their program is healthy at present, with good attendance (which is just as hard, if not harder than as SCSU to recruit to get players to stay in the Detroit area), they made it to the DII football National Championship game in 2012 and this year had an 8-3 record.  Also, there were nay-sayers about Davenport even starting a program let alone joining the GLIAC as they did (it is not a state university) and their program is stable (although they did not have a great record this year.) Ferris State, another example of being able to "do it all" in keeping with football, a DI hockey program and their women's sports and, similarly to SCSU, they have to complete with a huge number of DII football schools in the region (which has certainly had an effect on the DIII football programs in Michigan.) As to a DIII comparison, Adrian College was in danger financially as well as heavily declined enrollment back in the mid-2000s when they purposely added men's and women's ice hockey, men's and women's lacrosse, women's ice skating (they even have two club collegiate hockey programs) all of which increased enrollment, sustained the college and that even without athletic scholarships as we all, of course, know and they have not had to increase tuition/R&B to the levels that some of the other MIAA schools have had to do.  Perhaps, though, this DIII example cannot be compared to the DII situation at SCSU.

So overall, I believe that it can be done if it is really is wanted to be done (unless the school is in such dire financial danger, such as apparently DIII Beloit College is), although you mention that the donating factions in the immediate SCSU area were "maxed out", at least pointed toward/highly directed to the DI hockey program.  Nothing against the Title IX  situation as it has to be complied with and that is also only fair.  Yet, again, I just think the elimination of the football program is a sad and disappointing situation anytime, anywhere.  As to the Minnesota-Crookston situation, it appears that may have been a somewhat different (and/or worse) situation than at SCSU.  Anyway, too bad for the two schools, but that is the reality in today's world.  Thanks for allowing me to "rip off" a few overall general comments here, although as I said, I do not know the specifics, which would likely make some (or possibly all) of what I discussed mute in these two new particular situations.

They are not maxed out on donations, they're maxed out on the fees they can charge students to support athletics.  Even if they had some immediate fundraising like Michigan Tech did to save football, they'd still have to make the court ordered Title IX changes to their programs.  Instead of cutting the 75 men, they would have to find a way to add multiple women's sports and build the facilities that those teams would use.  Their President had to make the fiscally responsible decision to not add new burdens to their deficit as enrollment doesn't show any signs of growing.

[TheChucker]

Honest question here. What are the penalties for noncompliance in Title IX? Who enforces it?

[Baldini]

Certainly, you guys know much more about the situation at SCSU than I do and I do not know of the particulars regarding the Title IX lawsuit you mention they lost. Yet, just a few general comments here, if I may.  First, I am always sad when a college or university decides to eliminate their football program, although I understand there are a variety of factors that always weigh into and end up determining that final decision. And if they were struggling with only offering a small number (20) of full scholarships to be split among the 97 players on the roster, certainly providing the NCAA Div II limit of 35 to be split was out of the question.  However, IMO, and what I've seen from situations similar to this in the past with state university DII schools here in Michigan i.e. Wayne State and Michigan Tech as well as a school like Davenport University, which just started their program, initially one year in NAIA and now DII in the GLAIC, there is always a way to make it work.  Even Ferris State, which has DI hockey and DII football as you know has been able to do it, and their attendance, as well as the others in that league for football is not more than the "historical average" as you have mentioned and is essentially in-line with what we are seeing for college football attendance in this age (a decline at all levels, even though some schools have some huge single game attendance for their big games of the season.

From what you have shared, it sounds to me like that SCSU simply decided that football was of non-essential importance to the university despite the usual "difficult decision" comments from the administration/athletic administration as are always stated in these situations and, as such, that they've decided to pin the name on the DI hockey program as well as even more support for the women's athletic programs there-11 women's to 7 for men including the new men's soccer program in place of football (of course, I realize there is much more that is factored into that with regard to the women's programs and what is required to meet that as you outlined.)   

But again, I still believe if they really wanted to, a solution could be worked out.  As you probably recall, this happened back in the early 2000s at Michigan Tech when the administration eliminated football.  A huge outcry and backlash occurred and within 3 months, alumni (football and otherwise) raised over 3 million dollars for football and it was reinstated.  Tech soon after won a part of the GLIAC title and even played in Michigan Stadium against Grand Valley in what remains as the highest attendance for an NCAA DII football game to date (some 51,000.)  Granted, Michigan Tech has not had much success in football on the field in recent years, however, the program has been and is sustainable and, to my knowledge, there is no indication that there is danger of it being discontinued.  Similarly, Wayne State was going to drop football way back in 1983, although that was obviously a different era, yet the circumstances similar-at that time, they only offered 7 full football scholarships. Yet their program is healthy at present, with good attendance (which is just as hard, if not harder than as SCSU to recruit to get players to stay in the Detroit area), they made it to the DII football National Championship game in 2012 and this year had an 8-3 record.  Also, there were nay-sayers about Davenport even starting a program let alone joining the GLIAC as they did (it is not a state university) and their program is stable (although they did not have a great record this year.) Ferris State, another example of being able to "do it all" in keeping with football, a DI hockey program and their women's sports and, similarly to SCSU, they have to complete with a huge number of DII football schools in the region (which has certainly had an effect on the DIII football programs in Michigan.) As to a DIII comparison, Adrian College was in danger financially as well as heavily declined enrollment back in the mid-2000s when they purposely added men's and women's ice hockey, men's and women's lacrosse, women's ice skating (they even have two club collegiate hockey programs) all of which increased enrollment, sustained the college and that even without athletic scholarships as we all, of course, know and they have not had to increase tuition/R&B to the levels that some of the other MIAA schools have had to do.  Perhaps, though, this DIII example cannot be compared to the DII situation at SCSU.

So overall, I believe that it can be done if it is really is wanted to be done (unless the school is in such dire financial danger, such as apparently DIII Beloit College is), although you mention that the donating factions in the immediate SCSU area were "maxed out", at least pointed toward/highly directed to the DI hockey program.  Nothing against the Title IX  situation as it has to be complied with and that is also only fair.  Yet, again, I just think the elimination of the football program is a sad and disappointing situation anytime, anywhere.  As to the Minnesota-Crookston situation, it appears that may have been a somewhat different (and/or worse) situation than at SCSU.  Anyway, too bad for the two schools, but that is the reality in today's world.  Thanks for allowing me to "rip off" a few overall general comments here, although as I said, I do not know the specifics, which would likely make some (or possibly all) of what I discussed mute in these two new particular situations.

They are not maxed out on donations, they're maxed out on the fees they can charge students to support athletics.  Even if they had some immediate fundraising like Michigan Tech did to save football, they'd still have to make the court ordered Title IX changes to their programs.  Instead of cutting the 75 men, they would have to find a way to add multiple women's sports and build the facilities that those teams would use.  Their President had to make the fiscally responsible decision to not add new burdens to their deficit as enrollment doesn't show any signs of growing.

It still feels like part of this story is missing. Before the current cutting of football and men's and women's golf, there were 11 different women's sports teams and 7 different men's sports teams at St. Cloud State. Is it based on volume of athletes or number of sports offered? Because if it is volume of athletes I don't see how anyone with a football team anywhere can be in compliance with the rule.     

[AO]

Honest question here. What are the penalties for noncompliance in Title IX? Who enforces it?

After St. Cloud State lost their lawsuit in August the judge ordered them to start making changes to their programs to achieve compliance.  They have to provide the judge with reports every 6 months how their progress is coming along.  The department of education is in charge of creating the guidelines and regulations for Title IX.   The ultimate penalty would be the loss of all federal funding including Pell Grants for the whole university.

Nothing to worry about if you're a St. John's fan unless they decide to reorganize and bring the Bennies fully under the same umbrella.

[AO]

It still feels like part of this story is missing. Before the current cutting of football and men's and women's golf, there were 11 different women's sports teams and 7 different men's sports teams at St. Cloud State. Is it based on volume of athletes or number of sports offered? Because if it is volume of athletes I don't see how anyone with a football team anywhere can be in compliance with the rule.     

Volume of athletes, quality of the locker rooms and fields, etc.   Number of sports offered is irrelevant except that if you're continually adding women's sports you can show your progress towards compliance.

[bennie]

Quick hoops interruption for Bennie and our Linfield friends. SJU is playing two road games next week at Linfield & Willamette Dec. 20-21.

Fingers crossed we can experience an SJU football/basketball doubleheader on the 20th.

Thanks! I will have to check my calendar!!

[johnnie_esq]

It still feels like part of this story is missing. Before the current cutting of football and men's and women's golf, there were 11 different women's sports teams and 7 different men's sports teams at St. Cloud State. Is it based on volume of athletes or number of sports offered? Because if it is volume of athletes I don't see how anyone with a football team anywhere can be in compliance with the rule.     

Volume of athletes, quality of the locker rooms and fields, etc.   Number of sports offered is irrelevant except that if you're continually adding women's sports you can show your progress towards compliance.

I wouldn't call it "irrelevant" but it isn't necessarily a primary criteria.  It is about equivalent opportunities between genders, and the number of sports could affect those opportunities.  In D1, because football has 85 scholarships, schools need to have 85 women's scholarships to compensate.  That's why UMN has women's rowing and women's soccer-- they both add scholarships for women to offset the huge number allocated to men.

This all got out of whack back between 2011-2015 at SCSU.  Now they have to figure out what to do about it.

[miac952]

Topical and not so great news coming out of Bethel

http://www.startribune.com/declining-enrollment-prompts-staff-budget-cuts-at-bethel-university/566126311/

[AO]

It still feels like part of this story is missing. Before the current cutting of football and men's and women's golf, there were 11 different women's sports teams and 7 different men's sports teams at St. Cloud State. Is it based on volume of athletes or number of sports offered? Because if it is volume of athletes I don't see how anyone with a football team anywhere can be in compliance with the rule.     

Volume of athletes, quality of the locker rooms and fields, etc.   Number of sports offered is irrelevant except that if you're continually adding women's sports you can show your progress towards compliance.

I wouldn't call it "irrelevant" but it isn't necessarily a primary criteria.  It is about equivalent opportunities between genders, and the number of sports could affect those opportunities.  In D1, because football has 85 scholarships, schools need to have 85 women's scholarships to compensate.  That's why UMN has women's rowing and women's soccer-- they both add scholarships for women to offset the huge number allocated to men.

This all got out of whack back between 2011-2015 at SCSU.  Now they have to figure out what to do about it.

Women's soccer is at least a sport that is played in Minnesota high schools.  Rowing is the obvious Title IX addition.  They have to recruit by walking around campus looking for reasonably athletic girls with free time.  The other big equalizer that schools use is creating giant women's track and cross country teams.  There are many running events that don't limit the number of athletes you can have compete.

[johnnie_esq]

Women's soccer is at least a sport that is played in Minnesota high schools.  Rowing is the obvious Title IX addition.  They have to recruit by walking around campus looking for reasonably athletic girls with free time.  The other big equalizer that schools use is creating giant women's track and cross country teams.  There are many running events that don't limit the number of athletes you can have compete.

Curiously, SCSU adding men's soccer is interesting because they are the only D1 or D2 men's soccer in the upper midwest other than Upper Iowa.  They didn't add a sport just to increase travel costs substantially.

Presumably, SCSU will play nonscholarship men's soccer against MIAC opponents-- maybe replacing UST?-- and just serve as a D2 independent.

[TheChucker]

Women's soccer is at least a sport that is played in Minnesota high schools.  Rowing is the obvious Title IX addition.  They have to recruit by walking around campus looking for reasonably athletic girls with free time.  The other big equalizer that schools use is creating giant women's track and cross country teams.  There are many running events that don't limit the number of athletes you can have compete.

Curiously, SCSU adding men's soccer is interesting because they are the only D1 or D2 men's soccer in the upper midwest other than Upper Iowa.  They didn't add a sport just to increase travel costs substantially.

Presumably, SCSU will play nonscholarship men's soccer against MIAC opponents-- maybe replacing UST?-- and just serve as a D2 independent.

I thought the same. Men's soccer is a weird add.

[johnnie_esq]

Women's soccer is at least a sport that is played in Minnesota high schools.  Rowing is the obvious Title IX addition.  They have to recruit by walking around campus looking for reasonably athletic girls with free time.  The other big equalizer that schools use is creating giant women's track and cross country teams.  There are many running events that don't limit the number of athletes you can have compete.

Curiously, SCSU adding men's soccer is interesting because they are the only D1 or D2 men's soccer in the upper midwest other than Upper Iowa.  They didn't add a sport just to increase travel costs substantially.

Presumably, SCSU will play nonscholarship men's soccer against MIAC opponents-- maybe replacing UST?-- and just serve as a D2 independent.

I thought the same. Men's soccer is a weird add.

It does make sense demographically in this context-- you need to add a fall men's sport to remain a  part of the NCAA, and you could add soccer or cross country.   Cross country would be easy but add little to what you already have; meanwhile, the MN United have a very diverse demographic compared to football, and Central Minnesota, from Willmar to Lake George in St. Cloud, has a fast-growing increase in that same demographic.  If SCSU can harness that into an enrollment boost, more power to them.

That's what I mean about canaries in coal mines. 

[SJUrube]

It's noted on the homepage but the 2019 Gagliardi Trophy finalists will be announced on D3Football at 3pm ET today. https://www.d3football.com/notables/2019/12/gagliardi-finalist-announcement

[57Johnnie]

My guess:
Erdmann
Rutter
Smith
Germinerio
I also think that all are qualified and there are no losers.