FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[faunch]

I had a student lose her and mom's home to a fire over the weekend.
#2020 strikes again!!  Can we just hit the re-start button?

If you know anyone that could help them out.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/cjs-house-fire

[SagatagSam]

Lindy's ranked Martin Luther College 4 spots behind SJU?  That tells me everything I need to know about that poll.

Last MLC NCAA tournament appearances:

2019 at Wheaton, L, 51-7
2018 at St. John's, L, 84-6

I'd consider ranking St. Olaf and Carleton before MLC.

Those UMAC playoff blowouts look to be a thing of the past. Between MacMurray, CSS, and Iowa Wesleyan all leaving for different reasons, the school will drop below the required 7 teams for a Pool A bid. Loss of bid effective 2023.

Should mean an increase in Pool C bids by one that year unless I'm missing something. Still to be seen how the new divisional alignment helps/hurts MIAC Pool C candidates.

Let's hope so. I'm all for a little conference consolidation.

[repete]

Dang, my passport is expired.

https://twitter.com/StOlafFB/status/1270431727673118720/photo/1

[OzJohnnie]

Let's hope so. I'm all for a little conference consolidation.

I somewhat agree.  Even littler consolidation then?

It's a conundrum, that's for sure.  The selling point of D3 NCAA football is the exposure to a national championship and a whole swag of other sporting competitions while getting to keep the sport amateur.  But then, as is entirely reasonable, a small number of programs (fewer than 15?) lifted their game to be D2-lite and compete on a national scale.  So the disparity of competition in D3 has become huge, the disparity between conferences has become huge and budgets have grown to match regardless.  Running a D3 program has become rather expensive, even without scholarships.

I guess I disagree because I don't want to see fewer people playing football. Tightening budgets, etc, with the COVID response makes that even harder.  I guess I'm cheering for NAIA a bit.  They provide the opportunity for schools who don't want to compete with a NCAA expense level to still have football, which in the end is good for the sport, but give up having so many sports on the agenda.  Still good for football, though, which is my highest agenda item.

[Texas Ole]

Let's hope so. I'm all for a little conference consolidation.

I somewhat agree.  Even littler consolidation then?

It's a conundrum, that's for sure.  The selling point of D3 NCAA football is the exposure to a national championship and a whole swag of other sporting competitions while getting to keep the sport amateur.  But then, as is entirely reasonable, a small number of programs (fewer than 15?) lifted their game to be D2-lite and compete on a national scale.  So the disparity of competition in D3 has become huge, the disparity between conferences has become huge and budgets have grown to match regardless.  Running a D3 program has become rather expensive, even without scholarships.

I guess I disagree because I don't want to see fewer people playing football. Tightening budgets, etc, with the COVID response makes that even harder.  I guess I'm cheering for NAIA a bit.  They provide the opportunity for schools who don't want to compete with a NCAA expense level to still have football, which in the end is good for the sport, but give up having so many sports on the agenda.  Still good for football, though, which is my highest agenda item.

Years ago I was sitting with a group of college coaches and ADs mostly from D1 and D2 schools at an event in Texas.  They had some interesting takes on the divisions.  They argued that all divisions were corrupt, but just different in how they worked the system.  D1 was designed to fight cheating and corruption with the NCAA monitoring it in most cases.  D1 is where the money flows so the NCAA doesn't want to give up that cash flow.  Coach Wacker was one of the leaders in self reporting violations to the NCAA when he discovered them.  D2 was designed for corruption with little oversight.  Most schools found some loopholes to game the system.  D3 was designed to be the least corrupt with little monitoring, but it has grown to be the most corrupt division with rampant cheating.  It was quite interesting to hear how schools were using the NCAA rules and lack of oversight to cheat especially at the D3 level. 

I am thinking it might be time for a D4 level where conference championships are the pinnacle.  I think the biggest barrier is the number of sports that could be supported at that level.

[MUC57]

Texas Ole

Although I'm a huge Mount Union and Dlll fan, sometimes I think I must live in a closet.
For my edification ( love that word), please explain some of your comments.
I get uneasy hearing your talk of "corrupt" and "cheating".
I guess I'm naive. I like to think Dlll is "pure". You know, no scholarships, playing because of a love for the game, etc.
Thanks for your help.
Go Dlll Football! 🏈

[SagatagSam]

I am thinking it might be time for a D4 level where conference championships are the pinnacle.  I think the biggest barrier is the number of sports that could be supported at that level.

I struggle to see a D4 level of competition happening as it seems like it would be just a duplicate version of D3 but for schools that don't want to put as much money into athletics. I don't know what the distinguishing factor would be for D4 schools other than a school electing to be D4. The distinguishing factor for D3 is no athletic scholarships. I think that's why D2 is having such a hard time these days is that they are incurring the expense of athletic scholarships like D1 (just not as many) and not reaping the benefit of the exposure. As a result, they are shedding members.

What would stop a "middle tier" tier school from saying, "hey, let's jump down to D4 and clean house?" And, how does a student athlete choose between the two? We have one division of schools that is committed to academics as a priority (D3), and then we have this other division that is really, really, really committed to academics (D4)? I think a student athlete is more likely to attend a D1 school and then just choose to play club sports. The people that go D4 would be just as happy playing club sports elsewhere. I have members of my extended family that had offers to play D3, didn't want to have to make even a D3 level commitment, and instead went elsewhere and just played club or rec league and were perfectly happy.

D3 already bills itself as the division where academics are a priority. Just think of John Gagliardi holding up a dime in front of the team on a sunny day and saying, "This dime is football and that sun is your education. Don't ever get the two confused."

I'm open to other perspectives on D4. I'm just saying I'm skeptical of it working out.

[jamtod]

I am thinking it might be time for a D4 level where conference championships are the pinnacle.  I think the biggest barrier is the number of sports that could be supported at that level.

I struggle to see a D4 level of competition happening as it seems like it would be just a duplicate version of D3 but for schools that don't want to put as much money into athletics. I don't know what the distinguishing factor would be for D4 schools other than a school electing to be D4. The distinguishing factor for D3 is no athletic scholarships. I think that's why D2 is having such a hard time these days is that they are incurring the expense of athletic scholarships like D1 (just not as many) and not reaping the benefit of the exposure. As a result, they are shedding members.

What would stop a "middle tier" tier school from saying, "hey, let's jump down to D4 and clean house?" And, how does a student athlete choose between the two? We have one division of schools that is committed to academics as a priority (D3), and then we have this other division that is really, really, really committed to academics (D4)? I think a student athlete is more likely to attend a D1 school and then just choose to play club sports. The people that go D4 would be just as happy playing club sports elsewhere. I have members of my extended family that had offers to play D3, didn't want to have to make even a D3 level commitment, and instead went elsewhere and just played club or rec league and were perfectly happy.

D3 already bills itself as the division where academics are a priority. Just think of John Gagliardi holding up a dime in front of the team on a sunny day and saying, "This dime is football and that sun is your education. Don't ever get the two confused."

I'm open to other perspectives on D4. I'm just saying I'm skeptical of it working out.

I think the D4 thing is already happening, it's just not divided as such and those schools still have to play some of the top D3 schools, at least for football. Maybe it would be football specific and more of a D3AA thing. You don't play Carleton football and expect to win a conference championship or go to the playoffs. D3AA could just codify this and let these schools end the illusion of competing for a spot in the playoffs, and not get walloped 80-3 multiple times in a year. The focus on academics remains the same for D3 and D3AA, and I don't think it has to be the case that the divisions mean you are MORE REALLY REALLY REALLY focused on academics - look at WashU, Johns Hopkins, SJU, CWRU, and plenty of other examples of top tier academic institutions that are very competitive athletically.

Likewise with D1, there has been talk of a Division 0 where the Ohio States and Alabamas and Clemsons and Texases could play, separate from Wake Forest, the G5, etc.

This probably isn't tenable for other reasons, but I don't think it's that far off from what we have.

[Texas Ole]

Texas Ole

Although I'm a huge Mount Union and Dlll fan, sometimes I think I must live in a closet.
For my edification ( love that word), please explain some of your comments.
I get uneasy hearing your talk of "corrupt" and "cheating".
I guess I'm naive. I like to think Dlll is "pure". You know, no scholarships, playing because of a love for the game, etc.
Thanks for your help.
Go Dlll Football! 🏈

I am going to accuse any school.  I think there are plenty of suspicions, and some of us know schools we have attended and supported are huge violators.  It is convenient for us to ignore some of the problems.  The MacMurray tennis program is the most recent school to get the NCAA death penalty.  There are schools where admissions and other academic records are manipulated to support certain athletes.  The athletes have a set of admissions far different than the rest of the student body.  Financial aid has to fall in line with the overall student body, but how the money is spread opens some variance.  There are recruiting battles at the D3 level.  Some may come down to school fit, but I would imagine cost of attendance is considered in many cases.

I think a lot of schools participate in some of these issues, but I don't think it benefits the majority of the athletes.  I don't have a problem with extra financial aid going to a person who needs it.  We should meet all need for students.  I have a problem when a kid gets in to a school that is way above his academic record with a full ride while other kids struggle with finances and admissions.

[formerd3db]

I am thinking it might be time for a D4 level where conference championships are the pinnacle.  I think the biggest barrier is the number of sports that could be supported at that level.

I struggle to see a D4 level of competition happening as it seems like it would be just a duplicate version of D3 but for schools that don't want to put as much money into athletics. I don't know what the distinguishing factor would be for D4 schools other than a school electing to be D4. The distinguishing factor for D3 is no athletic scholarships. I think that's why D2 is having such a hard time these days is that they are incurring the expense of athletic scholarships like D1 (just not as many) and not reaping the benefit of the exposure. As a result, they are shedding members.

What would stop a "middle tier" tier school from saying, "hey, let's jump down to D4 and clean house?" And, how does a student athlete choose between the two? We have one division of schools that is committed to academics as a priority (D3), and then we have this other division that is really, really, really committed to academics (D4)? I think a student athlete is more likely to attend a D1 school and then just choose to play club sports. The people that go D4 would be just as happy playing club sports elsewhere. I have members of my extended family that had offers to play D3, didn't want to have to make even a D3 level commitment, and instead went elsewhere and just played club or rec league and were perfectly happy.

D3 already bills itself as the division where academics are a priority. Just think of John Gagliardi holding up a dime in front of the team on a sunny day and saying, "This dime is football and that sun is your education. Don't ever get the two confused."

I'm open to other perspectives on D4. I'm just saying I'm skeptical of it working out.

I think the D4 thing is already happening, it's just not divided as such and those schools still have to play some of the top D3 schools, at least for football. Maybe it would be football specific and more of a D3AA thing. You don't play Carleton football and expect to win a conference championship or go to the playoffs. D3AA could just codify this and let these schools end the illusion of competing for a spot in the playoffs, and not get walloped 80-3 multiple times in a year. The focus on academics remains the same for D3 and D3AA, and I don't think it has to be the case that the divisions mean you are MORE REALLY REALLY REALLY focused on academics - look at WashU, Johns Hopkins, SJU, CWRU, and plenty of other examples of top tier academic institutions that are very competitive athletically.

Likewise with D1, there has been talk of a Division 0 where the Ohio States and Alabamas and Clemsons and Texases could play, separate from Wake Forest, the G5, etc.

This probably isn't tenable for other reasons, but I don't think it's that far off from what we have.

Just some random thoughts after your post...

Would you classify the NESCAC as already in that "D4" concept? Also, as to the D0 model, that would be kind of like returning to the D1AA and D1A classifications, but only having the really big powers be allowed in the latter. I've opined before that, IMO, schools like the Mid America Conference should not really be FBS, but rather FCS (or D1AA.)

This will be interesting to see what transpires in the next year and beyond, however, I would not be surprised to see some major changes again in restructuring (then, of course, one never knows what the NCAA will.do nor even the President's of some various DIII conferences- although with many small schools having been in financial difficulty even before this coronavirus crisis and now even more so due to that, we potentially could be seeing this as the catalyst for the next round of revision. Remember Pat's article on the discussion concernimg this potential reorganization of DIII splitting into two divisions a few years ago? Perhaps that discussion is/will be resurfacing again? Funny how some adpevts in life tend to be cyclic. 

[jamtod]

I think the D4 thing is already happening, it's just not divided as such and those schools still have to play some of the top D3 schools, at least for football. Maybe it would be football specific and more of a D3AA thing. You don't play Carleton football and expect to win a conference championship or go to the playoffs. D3AA could just codify this and let these schools end the illusion of competing for a spot in the playoffs, and not get walloped 80-3 multiple times in a year. The focus on academics remains the same for D3 and D3AA, and I don't think it has to be the case that the divisions mean you are MORE REALLY REALLY REALLY focused on academics - look at WashU, Johns Hopkins, SJU, CWRU, and plenty of other examples of top tier academic institutions that are very competitive athletically.

Likewise with D1, there has been talk of a Division 0 where the Ohio States and Alabamas and Clemsons and Texases could play, separate from Wake Forest, the G5, etc.

This probably isn't tenable for other reasons, but I don't think it's that far off from what we have.

Just some random thoughts after your post...

Would you classify the NESCAC as already in that "D4" concept? Also, as to the D0 model, that sounds kind of be like returning to the D1AA and D1A classifications, but only having the really big powers be allowed in the latter. I've opined before that, IMO, schools like the Did America Conference should not really be FBS, but rather FCS (or D1AA.)

This will be interesting to see what transpired in the next year and beyond, however, I would not be surprised to see some major changes again in restructuring (then, of course, one never knows what the NCAA will.do nor even the President's of some various DIII conferences- although with many small schools having been in financial difficulty even before this coronavirus crisis and now even more so due to that, we potentially could be seeing this as the catalyst for the next round of revision. Remember Pat's article on the discussion concernimg this potential reorganization of DIII splitting into two divisions a few years ago? Perhaps that discussion is/will be resurfacing again? Funny how some adpevts in life tend to be cyclic.

For football only in the NESCAC, I guess the answer is "sort of." Their are football haves and have notes there, some that would compete with the rest of D3, others that wouldn't so it's tough to compare and it seems they have different reasons for this than what I'm looking at.

The D1AA and D1A classifications are still there, it's just FBS and FCS now, but I agree that it makes sense for a number of the G5 schools belong in FCS (or alternately, some of the D1 schools belong elsewhere).

[OzJohnnie]

Lot's of updates on the state of school returning for the state.  I may double up so I'll list them all (from the Chronicle of Higher Ed's list):

MIAC schools:

* Carleton, considering a range (a new development?)
* Bethel, in person
* CSB, in person
* SJU, in person
* MAC, in person
* SMU, in person
* STO, considering a range (must be something in the Northfield water)

Other Minnesota schools:

* Northwestern, in person
* Concordia St Paul, in person
* Bemidji St, hybrid
* Mankato St, in person
* MSU Moorhead, in person (good news for CON?)
* Southwest MN, in person
* SCSU, in person
* U of M, in person
* Winona St, still waiting to decide


https://www.chronicle.com/article/Here-s-a-List-of-Colleges-/248626

[OzJohnnie]

Iowa with heaps of updates.

In person: Buena Vista, Clarke, Cornell, Dordt, Drake, Faith Baptist, Loras, Luther, Morningside, Northwestern, Simpson

Considering a range: Grinnell


Wisconsin...

In person: Carroll, Concordia, Lakeland, Marquette, MSE, St Norbert, UWEC, UW Green Bay, UWRF, UW-Stout

Hybrid: Belloit

Considering a range: Lawrence, UW Madison, UW Milwaukee

[OzJohnnie]

Footy is back on!  I'm settling in for the first bounce of round 2 in 38 minutes as Collingwood play Richmond at the MCG.  The Hawks take on Geelong down at the Cattery in 24 hours.

EDIT: Meh.  It was a ****e game but it was at least a game.  The season is back on but we'll have to suffer through a couple weeks of pre-season grade footy, unfortunately.  Except when the Hawks play, of course.  They'll be red hot.

[Pat Coleman]

Iowa with heaps of updates.

In person: Buena Vista, Clarke, Cornell, Dordt, Drake, Faith Baptist, Loras, Luther, Morningside, Northwestern, Simpson

Considering a range: Grinnell


Wisconsin...

In person: Carroll, Concordia, Lakeland, Marquette, MSE, St Norbert, UWEC, UW Green Bay, UWRF, UW-Stout

Hybrid: Belloit

Considering a range: Lawrence, UW Madison, UW Milwaukee

Did Luther change its mind? They announced a hybrid program almost completely identical to Beloit's a few weeks back.