FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Cowboy2]

I think there's a pretty sizeable gap between the Top 4 and the top 5-15.

I would completely agree! For those with any insight, what are the top 4 programs doing that the 5 through 15 programs aren't? Is it recruiting? Player development? Location?

I would argue the top 10-15 are closer than ever before in reality. Maybe extend that to the top 20. D3 is so vast in its size, that making the top 25 is an accomplishment in itself. We rarely see teams from other regions play out of league. Usually you don't see the top teams play until quarters or semis. Half the field is gone by then. By virtue, if you win a couple easier games in rounds 1-2  (seeding that supposedly doesn't exist) helps out as well. Then a program just needs 1 win  (25% chance~) to go the the semis against probably another top 15 caliber team. So yes, the top 4 are really strong, but they are based on that geographical lumping of the bracket. I think a few teams on the west could have gone very far on the east side. I also think the mules and jays could have matched up well against a lot of the teams on the west side of the bracket, etc. I also think HSU could have been swapped out with UMHB for the same results this year.

So yes the top four are elite programs, but I'd extend that out to the to 10-15. There's a stable of good programs in the top 25 that make it back every year. More and more kids are wanting to play. Recruiting is dependent on grades more so at D3 than the upper levels of NCAA. Obviously history of a program helps. Who wants to go to a team, pay for your own school, that historically isn't performing on the field. That's a hard sell for some programs.

[MRMIKESMITH]

I think there's a pretty sizeable gap between the Top 4 and the top 5-15.

I would completely agree! For those with any insight, what are the top 4 programs doing that the 5 through 15 programs aren't? Is it recruiting? Player development? Location?

I think you always start with the athletes, that's half the battle. Location somewhat holds true, but varies by region. On the East Coast and West Coast, you have multiple schools that dilute the pool of talent and as you get more towards the heartland, it's the total opposite. Then I think it's coaching. I do think on many occasions that you can have a great coach with a talented roster make it into the top tier. However, I think when talent meets talent, it comes down to coaching, schemes, and preparation of players. You have to be able to adjust and if a coaching staff can put there players in good positions (this is when talent meets talent) and be able move from a 3-4 to an 4-3 or go from spread to power formation when needed is the biggest difference. You do have moments where sometimes just being more talented than your opponent can work out.

[Ice Bear]

I think there's a pretty sizeable gap between the Top 4 and the top 5-15.

I would completely agree! For those with any insight, what are the top 4 programs doing that the 5 through 15 programs aren't? Is it recruiting? Player development? Location?

I would argue the top 10-15 are closer than ever before in reality. Maybe extend that to the top 20. D3 is so vast in its size, that making the top 25 is an accomplishment in itself. We rarely see teams from other regions play out of league. Usually you don't see the top teams play until quarters or semis. Half the field is gone by then. By virtue, if you win a couple easier games in rounds 1-2  (seeding that supposedly doesn't exist) helps out as well. Then a program just needs 1 win  (25% chance~) to go the the semis against probably another top 15 caliber team. So yes, the top 4 are really strong, but they are based on that geographical lumping of the bracket. I think a few teams on the west could have gone very far on the east side. I also think the mules and jays could have matched up well against a lot of the teams on the west side of the bracket, etc. I also think HSU could have been swapped out with UMHB for the same results this year.

So yes the top four are elite programs, but I'd extend that out to the to 10-15. There's a stable of good programs in the top 25 that make it back every year. More and more kids are wanting to play. Recruiting is dependent on grades more so at D3 than the upper levels of NCAA. Obviously history of a program helps. Who wants to go to a team, pay for your own school, that historically isn't performing on the field. That's a hard sell for some programs.

Ice Bear really likes and appreciates this post, +k. Ice Bear says it gives him hope as he really would love to see 10, 15, 20, even mother****ing 25 teams have a realistic shot at making the semi's and even possible some day, the ****ing Stagg. Ice says maybe, bit by bit we are making progress. Ice reiterates there are certainly a ton of ****ing teams at the D3 level. Ice says over 230 teams is mindblowing.

[SagatagSam]

I think there's a pretty sizeable gap between the Top 4 and the top 5-15.

I would completely agree! For those with any insight, what are the top 4 programs doing that the 5 through 15 programs aren't? Is it recruiting? Player development? Location?

I know from years ago that financial aid and overall cost of attendance was something that moved the needle for some recruits. While there are no athletic scholarships in D3, having a robust financial aid package in general can help make decisions for recruits. I mean, I loved SJU and was going to go there come hell or high water, but having a good aid package certainly affirmed my decision, and there were a few other guys that came to SJU because of it.

UW-Whitewater, being a public school, certainly has a built in advantage when it comes to cost of attendance. But, that doesn't explain UMHB, NCC, and UMU. Also, as a counter-example to my UW-Whitewater comment about "built in advantage," then why wouldn't all of the other WIAC schools be ranked in the top 15 nationally?

Of course financial aid is just one factor among many, and maybe I'm giving it more weight than it deserves (because perhaps it deserves none).

[DuffMan]

Probably because I didn't see you.

I always assume that Bluenote is your alter ego.  Once the bourbon starts flowing, D O.C. morphs into Bluenote. 

[Cowboy2]

I do think private and public universities have some to do with it based on overall costs of a student athletes decision on where to pay and play in D3. I know for a lot of families, a nice financial aid packages is huge in determining where their child will ultimately end up. 

The overall cost of the Education and post college return on that degree will be a big factor. Student loans add up and any institution grant or merit for their academic career will ease the burden of making a choice on which school to go to, should someone not have a shot at a scholarship in a higher division.

I would also say that geographic location is another factor. Some schools have smaller recruiting bases, and have to woo and ahh players to come from out of region or state. The Tradition (think St. John's) of a program and the coaching staff can help weigh the scales in an even Steven's situation. I know in Texas there are a ton of programs, but  it's still hard for all the kids to get a D1 scholarship because there are so many high schools. This helps in the fact there are numerous D3 schools to choose from (ASC). Some players do not play at the D2 level and transfer down for an opportunity.

UMHB poured a lot of resources into their athletics and facilities because they wanted to be excel  at sports as well. Not all universities make such an investment. It also doesn't happen over night. I think the college boards, ADs, presidents also have a say. If they're behind the athletic program, usually the sports teams will eventually start to rise with success. However, You see the cycle of a program excelling and then the coach leaves and it doesn't rebuild. These take time. If it's a good situation the coach stays and you have a dynasty. Think Mount Union.

Then there are some universities (SAA for example) that have had higher prerequisites for student athletes to meet for SAT and ACT testing. Not all recruits will meet those and it limits the scholar those programs recruit. 

I found this:

https://recruiting.studentathleteworld.com/recruiting-101-blog/entry/best-academic-d3-schools

I think it's hard for some programs to compete year in year out based on the student (first) - athlete they recruit and who is accepted through admissions.

The fact there is 230+ programs and the playoff system gives us one winner is Awesome! That is the beauty of D3, because all the athletes choose to play knowing it's for the love of the game while they earn their degree.

Again if a program has 2-3 wins a year, for a decade, it's a hard sell to go there and play sports,....should they have an opportunity to earn a degree at a similar university that usually is well above .500 year in year out.

['95 Blugold]

I think there's a pretty sizeable gap between the Top 4 and the top 5-15.

I would completely agree! For those with any insight, what are the top 4 programs doing that the 5 through 15 programs aren't? Is it recruiting? Player development? Location?

I know from years ago that financial aid and overall cost of attendance was something that moved the needle for some recruits. While there are no athletic scholarships in D3, having a robust financial aid package in general can help make decisions for recruits. I mean, I loved SJU and was going to go there come hell or high water, but having a good aid package certainly affirmed my decision, and there were a few other guys that came to SJU because of it.

UW-Whitewater, being a public school, certainly has a built in advantage when it comes to cost of attendance. But, that doesn't explain UMHB, NCC, and UMU. Also, as a counter-example to my UW-Whitewater comment about "built in advantage," then why wouldn't all of the other WIAC schools be ranked in the top 15 nationally?

Of course financial aid is just one factor among many, and maybe I'm giving it more weight than it deserves (because perhaps it deserves none).

I think that cost advantage only comes in with players that are coming in from the state of Wisconsin and Minnesota with the reciprocity agreement. Looking at least to Eau Claire, my alma mater, unless your coming from the state of Minnesota an out of state tuition bill is coming in over $25,000/year. That probably comes in line to total cost a player could get down to with financial packages from the private schools. I know when my son was looking at colleges a couple years ago his total cost was coming in around the mid $20,000s after aid.

Whitewater may be able to pull in some of those out of state kids simply because of their "D3 status" and people wanting to play there, but not sure if the other schools in the conference can.  That leaves 7 other schools battling for D3 talent within the 2 states. Throw in the MIAC, and other nearby private school conferences and some D2 offers I'm guessing the talent level just isn't there to support more than 1 with an occasional 2 or 3 top tier teams. I'm down in Section 1 in the state of Minnesota that is primarily 9-Man through AAA schools and I bet players with D3 aspirations aren't getting looked at unless the student is showing interest first.

It's a tough mountain to climb for the "bottom tier" teams of the WIAC to elevate. UWRF was able to move up this year which was nice to see. I'd be happy if my Blugolds could at least be in the mix to be a middle tier team in the conference.

[bluenote]

Probably because I didn't see you.

[bluenote]

I always assume that Bluenote is your alter ego.  Once the bourbon starts flowing, D O.C. morphs into Bluenote. 

Once the bourbon starts flowing.... I can suddenly understand DOC's posts. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

[OzJohnnie]

Some uncertainty for Ben Bartch coming up as urban Meyer got the bullet today. Tough spot for a second year player to find himself but he's been starting so let's hope his role stays settled.

[retagent]

I think there's a pretty sizeable gap between the Top 4 and the top 5-15.

I would completely agree! For those with any insight, what are the top 4 programs doing that the 5 through 15 programs aren't? Is it recruiting? Player development? Location?

I know from years ago that financial aid and overall cost of attendance was something that moved the needle for some recruits. While there are no athletic scholarships in D3, having a robust financial aid package in general can help make decisions for recruits. I mean, I loved SJU and was going to go there come hell or high water, but having a good aid package certainly affirmed my decision, and there were a few other guys that came to SJU because of it.

UW-Whitewater, being a public school, certainly has a built in advantage when it comes to cost of attendance. But, that doesn't explain UMHB, NCC, and UMU. Also, as a counter-example to my UW-Whitewater comment about "built in advantage," then why wouldn't all of the other WIAC schools be ranked in the top 15 nationally?

Of course financial aid is just one factor among many, and maybe I'm giving it more weight than it deserves (because perhaps it deserves none).

I look at the WIAC schools as having a number of advantages in the athletic area. I believe they all have good programs in at least one sport. UWW, IMO, has the added advantage of being close to the Chicago area, which is a fertile recruiting ground. Their rise to prominence had a lot to do with an excellent coaching staff, and athletic facilities. Add that to the fact that there are no DII schools in Wiscy to compete against, and the lower costs associated with a state school vs private. They also, I assume, because of the ability to recruit more athletes as a result of the large student body and lower admission standards, have those things in their favor. Now, that UWW has the reputation they have built, they are even more attractive since they consistently have a shot at the National Championship.

I may receive criticism for positing the above, but I don't know why it would be a point of contention. It is what it is, and if I was a fan of the WIAC, I would revel in it.

[WashedUpCard]

I think cost is a major issue.  The difference in tuition between a place like NCC and Whitewater is around $25K a year (that's based on out-of-state tuition at UWW - for Wisconsin residents the difference is closer to $35K per year).  I imagine that is a deciding factor for a lot of kids.

[DuffMan]

I noticed that ESPNU is airing the semifinal games leading up to the Stagg Bowl tomorrow, if anyone it interested.

['95 Blugold]

I think cost is a major issue.  The difference in tuition between a place like NCC and Whitewater is around $25K a year (that's based on out-of-state tuition at UWW - for Wisconsin residents the difference is closer to $35K per year).  I imagine that is a deciding factor for a lot of kids.

True, but that is the posted cost difference, but I would guess the actual cost difference is much closer. My son graduated in 2020 and he had interest and visited Luther College ( approx. $57,000 Tuition, Room & Board) and St. Olaf (approx. $63,000 Tuition, Room & Board) and by time financial aid packages were applied actual cost was in mid-high $20,000. So overall, not that much of a difference once all was said and done and if it provides the opportunity of playing college football I doubt it's much of a deterent.

Also, I think you may underestimate, just what kids and their parents are willing to pay for the opportunity college ball at any level. Case in point, I have a neighbor who just finished up playing QB for our high school team and really would not have a chance to play at the WIAC level, but he's looking at lower tier MIAC/ARC schools just so he can have the opportunity to play football at the college level.

[DuffMan]

Case in point, I have a neighbor who just finished up playing QB for our high school team and really would not have a chance to play at the WIAC level, but he's looking at lower tier MIAC/ARC schools just so he can have the opportunity to play football at the college level.

Based on some of the QB play I have seen from the lower-tier MIAC teams, he'll find a place to play.