FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[57Johnnie]

Pretty sure the fair catch is valid anywhere on the field & placed where fielded; exception being inside the 25 placed @ the 25.

100%.  Does that include the infraction we are talking about?  That's what's odd to me. That the ref had an explanation. If the rule was as simple as I thought it was, seems like the ref would have said, "Just a minute, coach", huddled with the other refs, and then implemented the penalty. instead he gave some explanation that I'm almost sure had to do with the 25 yard line. Hopefully, I can get the info and report back.

I would say that there is no exception to the no advance rule. It is not provided for in the rules as far as I can tell.

Further, such an exception would not make sense--it's a delay of game in between the 25 yard lines but if there is a fair catch inside the 25s then you can advance the ball and there is no delay of game?

Exactly, the refs didn't get something right here. If it is only a fair catch inside the 25 yard line (and only on kickoffs, not punts), then why did they bring the ball back to where he caught it? If a fair catch doesn't apply, then they should have spotted the ball where he was tackled, but they didn't. If it really was a fair catch (just not inside the 25 yard line), then they should have applied the delay of game penalty. Either they should have spotted the ball where the runner was tackled or they should have applied the penalty, but they did neither.

I think we forget that the player that signaled fair catch did NOT catch the ball. The player who caught the ball was ahead of the player that signaled and probably did not know of the signal.

[SagatagSam]

Pretty sure the fair catch is valid anywhere on the field & placed where fielded; exception being inside the 25 placed @ the 25.

100%.  Does that include the infraction we are talking about?  That's what's odd to me. That the ref had an explanation. If the rule was as simple as I thought it was, seems like the ref would have said, "Just a minute, coach", huddled with the other refs, and then implemented the penalty. instead he gave some explanation that I'm almost sure had to do with the 25 yard line. Hopefully, I can get the info and report back.

I would say that there is no exception to the no advance rule. It is not provided for in the rules as far as I can tell.

Further, such an exception would not make sense--it's a delay of game in between the 25 yard lines but if there is a fair catch inside the 25s then you can advance the ball and there is no delay of game?

Exactly, the refs didn't get something right here. If it is only a fair catch inside the 25 yard line (and only on kickoffs, not punts), then why did they bring the ball back to where he caught it? If a fair catch doesn't apply, then they should have spotted the ball where he was tackled, but they didn't. If it really was a fair catch (just not inside the 25 yard line), then they should have applied the delay of game penalty. Either they should have spotted the ball where the runner was tackled or they should have applied the penalty, but they did neither.

I think we forget that the player that signaled fair catch did NOT catch the ball. The player who caught the ball was ahead of the player that signaled and probably did not know of the signal.

That's where I think discretion on the part of the officials come in. Technically, the rule says any receiving team player may call for a fair catch. You could have a double returner scenario where one calls for the fair catch and the other has no knowledge of it, fields the ball and advances it. Should the receiving team be penalized in that situation? The rule says yes, and maybe that's a flaw in the rule. If the officials aren't quick to the whistle, I would not want my returner assuming the play is dead.

That would be another thing I would like to see about the play--when was it whistled dead? If the officials waited a second or two to whistle the play dead, it justifies the returner advancing the ball.

[RoyalsFan]

Pretty sure the fair catch is valid anywhere on the field & placed where fielded; exception being inside the 25 placed @ the 25.

100%.  Does that include the infraction we are talking about?  That's what's odd to me. That the ref had an explanation. If the rule was as simple as I thought it was, seems like the ref would have said, "Just a minute, coach", huddled with the other refs, and then implemented the penalty. instead he gave some explanation that I'm almost sure had to do with the 25 yard line. Hopefully, I can get the info and report back.

I would say that there is no exception to the no advance rule. It is not provided for in the rules as far as I can tell.

Further, such an exception would not make sense--it's a delay of game in between the 25 yard lines but if there is a fair catch inside the 25s then you can advance the ball and there is no delay of game?

Exactly, the refs didn't get something right here. If it is only a fair catch inside the 25 yard line (and only on kickoffs, not punts), then why did they bring the ball back to where he caught it? If a fair catch doesn't apply, then they should have spotted the ball where he was tackled, but they didn't. If it really was a fair catch (just not inside the 25 yard line), then they should have applied the delay of game penalty. Either they should have spotted the ball where the runner was tackled or they should have applied the penalty, but they did neither.

I think we forget that the player that signaled fair catch did NOT catch the ball. The player who caught the ball was ahead of the player that signaled and probably did not know of the signal.

Let's review the rule: ARTICLE 2. No [receiving team] player shall carry a caught or recovered ball more than two steps in any direction after any [receiving team] player gives a valid or invalid fair catch signal (A.R. 6-5-2-I-III).
PENALTY—Dead-ball foul, delay of game. Five yards from the succeeding spot [S7 and S21].

Seems pretty straight forward to me. There is no provision for 'unless the player catching the ball didn't make the fair catch signal'. The only discretionary part of would be if he took 3 steps instead of 2, but not running for a whole 10 yards.

[DuffMan]

Josh Thurow was the referee.  I'm sure you could track him down and ask for an explanation.

[OzJohnnie]

Am I getting the right?  This whole conversation is going on and no one has reviewed the tape?

It's not available on the portal anymore so I can't go back now and look for myself.  But from memory this is what happened:

* The guy who signalled fair catch was seven or eight yards behind the guy who caught the ball.  The guy who caught the ball had no idea fair catch had been called.
* The ref knew, however, and blew the whistle as soon as the ball was caught.
* The player who caught the ball takes a few steps, stops, and turns to the ref doing raised arms gesture meaning  "Why did you blow the whistle?"
* Chris Backes's dad, the former ref, who is in the booth with VOJ said, "something, something, rules" and didn't bat an eyelid.

The audio is available for free on the portal.  Can anyone remember where in the game this happened?  It's easy enough to go back and hear what the commentary was.

[RoyalsFan]

Am I getting the right?  This whole conversation is going on and no one has reviewed the tape?

It's not available on the portal anymore so I can't go back now and look for myself.  But from memory this is what happened:

* The guy who signalled fair catch was seven or eight yards behind the guy who caught the ball.  The guy who caught the ball had no idea fair catch had been called.
* The ref knew, however, and blew the whistle as soon as the ball was caught.
* The player who caught the ball takes a few steps, stops, and turns to the ref doing raised arms gesture meaning  "Why did you blow the whistle?"
* Chris Backes's dad, the former ref, who is in the booth with VOJ said, "something, something, rules" and didn't bat an eyelid.

The audio is available for free on the portal.  Can anyone remember where in the game this happened?  It's easy enough to go back and hear what the commentary was.

This happened early in the 3rd quarter, right after WW scored a td on their opening drive of the 2nd half. And no, the runner didn't stop and turn around, he was tackled by a couple WW players. That's what I remember as it happened pretty much right in front of me where I was sitting.

[OzJohnnie]

This happened early in the 3rd quarter, right after WW scored a td on their opening drive of the 2nd half.

I chuckle because all our memories are off a bit.  UWW had only one punt in the third quarter with just a minute to go in the period and it was the fourth drive of the quarter.  It was the third drive after they had scored their touchdown, the two intervening drives ending on a safety and a fumble.

Judge Johnnie Red lives this every day, I imagine, trials and witnesses being what they are.  I'll post the audio timestamp here when I find it so that anyone can easy listen if so inclined.

EDIT: Even further to recollections, that wasn't the punt in the third. That was downed by UWW with no return.  I'll check out the other second half punts to see which one it was.

[RoyalsFan]

This happened early in the 3rd quarter, right after WW scored a td on their opening drive of the 2nd half.

I chuckle because all our memories are off a bit.  UWW had only one punt in the third quarter with just a minute to go in the period and it was the fourth drive of the quarter.  It was the third drive after they had scored their touchdown, the two intervening drives ending on a safety and a fumble.

Judge Johnnie Red lives this every day, I imagine, trials and witnesses being what they are.  I'll post the audio timestamp here when I find it so that anyone can easy listen if so inclined.

EDIT: Even further to recollections, that wasn't the punt in the third. That was downed by UWW with no return.  I'll check out the other second half punts to see which one it was.

This wasn't on a punt, it was on the kickoff after WW scored their touchdown.

[OzJohnnie]

I'm glad I came back here to see if anyone had posted.  I was looking through all the punts and couldn't find it.  Feared I was going loco.

[RoyalsFan]

I'm glad I came back here to see if anyone had posted.  I was looking through all the punts and couldn't find it.  Feared I was going loco.

Form the play by play:

2nd and Goal at SJU04    Lewandowski,Eva pass complete to Holte,Tyler for 4 yards to the SJU00, TOUCHDOWN, clock 11:05.
     Custer,Nate kick attempt good.
     UW-Whitewater 10, St. John's 9
7 plays, 78 yards, 03:50 elapsed
     Custer,Nate kickoff 41 yards to the SJU24, fair catch by Cooper Yaggie.

Interesting to note that it says he caught at the SJU24. Somebody said the fair catch didn't apply since it wasn't inside the 25 yard line. Not according to the play by play.

[DuffMan]

You're quite tenacious about a potential no-call that had no impact on the outcome of the game.

[RoyalsFan]

You're quite tenacious about a potential no-call that had no impact on the outcome of the game.

I thought I explained why earlier. I just want to know why it was ruled the way it was. I like to know what the rules are. It has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Others here must also want to know. This looks like the refs really didn't understand the fair catch rule.

[OzJohnnie]

You're quite tenacious about a potential no-call that had no impact on the outcome of the game.

Ok, on the greatest play that never mattered.  I have watched the video and here's exactly what happened:

1. SJU7 waves a fair catch on the 11 and continues waving up to the 14 where he notices that SJU3 is preparing to catch the ball.  SJU7 pulls up and lets SJU3 take it.
2. SJU3 catches the ball on the 24, at this point 3 yards in front of SJU7 who has stopped moving on the 21, and proceeds to move forward, unaware of SJU7's actions.
3. SJU3 pulls up on the 28 and starts spinning around as he moves looking for the ref at the sound of the whistle.  Everyone, even all the UWW players, pull up at the same time when UWW81 lightly touches SJU3 on the 31 and then immediately looks to the ref with a "what's up" gesture.
4. SJU3 stands on the 33 looking around trying to figure out what's going on and who to give the ball to.  A ref walks back, collects the ball and places it on the 25.


So, all the drama is this...

a) A fair catch was called for and caught inside the 25,
b) The catching player had no idea the fair catch had been called and the play was whistled dead immediately (the play was whistled dead soon enough and obvious enough that not a single player - either SJU or UWW - had to pick themselves up off the ground anywhere on screen around the catching player),
c) Although the players and coaches expressed confusion, the reffing crew did not as they moved with purpose to place the ball on the 25,
d) And although VOJ expressed confusion, Chris Backus's dad said, "if anyone calls for fair catch then you whistle the play dead."

If you want to listen to it, it happens after the commercial break and starts at 3:36:28.

[OzJohnnie]

You're quite tenacious about a potential no-call that had no impact on the outcome of the game.

I thought I explained why earlier. I just want to know why it was ruled the way it was. I like to know what the rules are. It has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the game. Others here must also want to know. This looks like the refs really didn't understand the fair catch rule.

No, I'm pretty sure they knew exactly what the rules were and followed them.  I think it's the boards who have it wrong.

[RoyalsFan]

You're quite tenacious about a potential no-call that had no impact on the outcome of the game.

Ok, on the greatest play that never mattered.  I have watched the video and here's exactly what happened:

1. SJU7 waves a fair catch on the 11 and continues waving up to the 14 where he notices that SJU3 is preparing to catch the ball.  SJU7 pulls up and lets SJU3 take it.
2. SJU3 catches the ball on the 24, at this point 3 yards in front of SJU7 who has stopped moving on the 21, and proceeds to move forward, unaware of SJU7's actions.
3. SJU3 pulls up on the 28 and starts spinning around as he moves looking for the ref at the sound of the whistle.  Everyone, even all the UWW players, pull up at the same time when UWW81 lightly touches SJU3 on the 31 and then immediately looks to the ref with a "what's up" gesture.
4. SJU3 stands on the 33 looking around trying to figure out what's going on and who to give the ball to.  A ref walks back, collects the ball and places it on the 25.


So, all the drama is this...

a) A fair catch was called for and caught inside the 25,
b) The catching player had no idea the fair catch had been called and the play was whistled dead immediately (the play was whistled dead soon enough and obvious enough that not a single player - either SJU or UWW - had to pick themselves up off the ground anywhere on screen around the catching player),
c) Although the players and coaches expressed confusion, the reffing crew did not as they moved with purpose to place the ball on the 25,
d) And although VOJ expressed confusion, Chris Backus's dad said, "if anyone calls for fair catch then you whistle the play dead."

If you want to listen to it, it happens after the commercial break and starts at 3:36:28.

Thanks for the detailed description of the play. That still doesn't answer the question why there wasn't a delay of game penalty called as the runner clearly took more than 2 steps after catching the ball and after the whistle had blown.