FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[johnnie_esq]

Consensual sex with a minor is still a very serious crime, and the issue in our legal system is wether or not a minor is actually able to grant consent.  I think the issue is that no two 14 year olds are the same, or any two 17 year olds either.  It is so hard to say at what point in their life a person is able to make those kinds of decisions rationally.

Actually, you're right on with your analysis, but the problem then turns to this:  by making the examination you are proposing, aren't you putting the victim on trial by attempting to ascertain her mental state (which has since been thrown in disarray, to say the least) before the alleged incident?  Do we as a society want to do that in our procedure and especially to our children?

So we don't.  Because the actual examination would be difficult to do, we draw an arbitrary line and say that's the law.  It may not be appropriate in all circumstances, but its application is uniform.

She says she didnt say no or try to stop him, so it isnt considered rape by any means.

She does go on to note that investigators were told that she was "frightened and it was a painful experience for her"  That may be enough to secure a rape conviction on its face, given the other circumstances.  If the individual held power over her due to status, the mental duress could suffice as evidence that, while she did not physically or verbally resist, his "status" as a star athlete and his "experience" (translated as age in this case) could have made her feel that resistance would have been futile. 

So it could be considered rape on its merits also, though proving it would be a little bit more difficult than proving the charge were it to contain use of aggressive force.

[K-Mack]

I don't know the kid at all, but I just want to say, " WHAT A FRICKING MORON!!"
14, what does that make her, a HS freshman this fall?

I agree, there are definitely 16 and 17 year olds that can pass for 18 or 19, but at 14 ... you gotta at least wonder.

Looking at it from that perspective, it's too easy to just say "he made a mistake." You've got to know better.

It will be interesting to see if Gags pulls a Brewster or let's Luberts bring his cloud back to the team for a season with high expectations. The common media perception (Vick, Pacman, U of M players) seems to say the "right" step is to distance the team/program from the player and cut ties completely.

Arrests give coaches a tough dilemma. Shame your program and keep the guy on board, or, right when he needs a father figure and guidance the most, cut ties with him completely.

Perhaps the ideal situation is some middle ground, where you say look, I'll be here for you, this team will be here for you, through tough times. But you let us down, and we can't go on acting like everything's the same. You have to accept some responsibility for bringing this on yourself, and our program.

I don't know if a coach can make a wrong decision in these cases, but I'm not sure he ever knows he made the right one.

Speaking generally too, was reading yesterday about a kid who had sex with a 14-year-old when he was 18, and Florida and Miami passed, but Southern Miss signed him. He was out of their league, so they thought it was a bonus, but their coach is also known as a second-chance giver.

And even though they probably signed him as much for selfish reasons as noble ones, I respect that.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat -- the consensual issue is very tough.

Appreciate you looping me in, though I haven't made any posts on the subject.

[K-Mack]

I'm guessing the comments went out of bounds as some of those Stearns County nuts and Johnnie haters chime in.

KMack,
Sounds like you're on the right path.

Too much "learned helplessness" enabled by some parents out there. The foundation starts earlier than my think. Enjoy toddlerhood.

Thanks.

I was holding my daughter not long after writing that and thinking "I have at least 9 years before I have to decide if everything I just wrote is BS, at least with regard to boys." But then I also looked at my son and realized it's too easy to just want to protect the girls. We probably also have to arm the boys with enough decision-making ability to know not to put themselves in bad situations, and the strength to hold off the peers who will inevitably try to pressure them in those moments.

Probably easier said than done. I think back to how I made it through. It was probably part fear of God, part fear of Dad, part being trusted with enough decisions over the years to feel confident making unpopular ones and part being instilled with enough sense of right and wrong (and not even knowing it) that a lot of those decisions weren't that hard to make.

Girls were a vice for me, but most of the really bad situations I can think of in my own life involved fights, some that happened, some that (thankfully) didn't.

Weird aside, we had a kid in high school who let himself get beat up (over a girl) because we had a no fights rule on the basketball team. Kid was a promising sophomore on varsity, he didn't want to get tossed off the team, and he didn't throw a punch. So the coach actually went back on his zero-tolerance fighting policy and let him stay on.

I remember thinking to myself "no way I could have done that. I love basketball and all ... "

[finsleft]

Wow, talk about taking one for the team!

[Touchdown Tommy]

I have a question for you "senior" Johnnie posters (aka Judge Johnnie Red, Finsleft, ROR, Veek, et al).  Has John Gagliardi and his staff EVER had to deal with any situation similar to this?  If so, when and how was it dealt with?

[dbhammel]

Pat -- meant to reply to kmack, saw the d3 pic and assumed it was you, oops.

Johhnie esq -- very good analysis on your point.  The idea that it still could be rape even if she didnt resist or say no is quite possible.  He may have intimidated her and by being scared she may have felt unable to say no or pressured into it enough to go along with it.  Its such a hard thing to say, did she half-consent, is this still rape?  She clearly didnt fight back or kick and scream, but if she didnt say no because she felt pressured and intimidated, then is this rape?  Wouldnt really be consensual in that case.  All of this isnt really about this case as much as this issue in general, its hard to say what happend in this case because we dont know many of the facts. 

[finsleft]

I have a question for you "senior" Johnnie posters (aka Judge Johnnie Red, Finsleft, ROR, Veek, et al).  Has John Gagliardi and his staff EVER had to deal with any situation similar to this?  If so, when and how was it dealt with?

Not that I can remember. There have been guys who've had legal scrapes here or there, and guys who've been tossed, but I don't recall a serious situation with this kind of publicity before.

db-
The distinction you make is not a legal one. Rape is not just defined as use of force or an unwilling victim, as J Esq pointed out. Sex, even consensual, with someone under the age of legal consent, is rape.

[sju56321]

Unfortunate discussions over the last several days, sexual assault and under-age drinking.
In any event, I would bet the defense attorney would like to have some of you on the jury-everyone has their own opinion and sometimes it all comes down who was picked for the jury. I also wondered about those comments from the Times site and if that is the view of some, that it was the girl's fault of parent's fault-it would make it more palatable to try this case instead of opt for a plea.
As for Lubbert's status on the team or at school-does innocent until proven guilty have any bearing? (just asking)
Finally, what happens if, as a condition of bail, he is not to have contact with a minor female-how could he attend school, as there must be some 17 year olds on campus, at least to start the semester.

[sfury]

Wasn't there a kid tossed last year for drinking at or before the Concordia game? Obviously a lot less serious than this, and he was dismissed.

[johnnie_esq]

As for Lubbert's status on the team or at school-does innocent until proven guilty have any bearing? (just asking)
Finally, what happens if, as a condition of bail, he is not to have contact with a minor female-how could he attend school, as there must be some 17 year olds on campus, at least to start the semester.

I don't know about the first part, but he certainly does not have any Constitutional rights to be a part of the football team or to attend school at SJU.

Don't forget about the Prep School, Zip.  There are lots of minors there and they take the buses back and forth between CSB and SJU too.

Fins, I think db was talking about, absent the age issue, whether this is still rape.  While the inquiry isn't necessarily relevant for guilt purposes in this case, it may be an issue for sentencing purposes as to the degree of the alleged crime.  Evidence of aggression or intimidation may be grounds to increase any sentence handed down.

Sfury, yes.  But he was not on the traveling roster, and may have been taking up locker space, as they cleaned out his locker for him before Monday's practice without even a trial.  I won't comment on a double standard relating to this case.

[Touchdown Tommy]

Nice to see the Johnnie Dream Team weighing in and coming strong today.

I would also be interested in getting a female perspective on this.  I see Bennie lurking...  

[sju56321]

Esq- good point I did forget about the Prep school.
And of course he does not have right to attend a private school-just thinkg about all the times I was told a series of events by my client, later to learn the events were quite different. As I recall from law school and now in practice for a while-there are always three sides to every story.

[sju56321]

Fins and Johnnie Esq-in reading Minnesota Statute section 609-it appears that this alleged offense would be a third degree assault-as the alleged perpetrator was not in a position of authority, correct?

[finsleft]

Fins and Johnnie Esq-in reading Minnesota Statute section 609-it appears that this alleged offense would be a third degree assault-as the alleged perpetrator was not in a position of authority, correct?

Sure Zip, sounds good. Actually, I've got a case that requires my attention now so I can't look it up.
It's the case of Hamm's on the pontoon. I'm outa here.
Have a good weekend fellas and, remember, be sure to check those ID's.