FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[sju56321]

I need more of those cases!

[tmerton]

Fins and Johnnie Esq-in reading Minnesota Statute section 609-it appears that this alleged offense would be a third degree assault-as the alleged perpetrator was not in a position of authority, correct?

Sure Zip, sounds good. Actually, I've got a case that requires my attention now so I can't look it up.
It's the case of Hamm's on the pontoon. I'm outa here.
Have a good weekend fellas and, remember, be sure to check those ID's.

Hope you got the stern light fixed.  Hate to see you pull another ticket.

[Touchdown Tommy]

You drink Budweiser products 56321 you can't kid the MIAC PP crew.  In fact, I think you may shun Hamm's brew entirely.  Shhhhhhhh I won't tell Finsleft...

[frankrickard]

Fins and Johnnie Esq-in reading Minnesota Statute section 609-it appears that this alleged offense would be a third degree assault-as the alleged perpetrator was not in a position of authority, correct?

Sure Zip, sounds good. Actually, I've got a case that requires my attention now so I can't look it up.
It's the case of Hamm's on the pontoon. I'm outa here.
Have a good weekend fellas and, remember, be sure to check those ID's.

I haven't been to law school, and don't consider myself a knowledgable source of the law, but I've got myself a big case I'm working on right now.  I've got myself a case of Fat Tire...only 40 bucks at Surdyks

[sju56321]

TDT-you should know about shunning or rather being shunned.
But Fat Tire Beer would be a nice case to work on.

[K-Mack]

Consensual sex with a minor is still a very serious crime, and the issue in our legal system is wether or not a minor is actually able to grant consent.  I think the issue is that no two 14 year olds are the same, or any two 17 year olds either.  It is so hard to say at what point in their life a person is able to make those kinds of decisions rationally.

Actually, you're right on with your analysis, but the problem then turns to this:  by making the examination you are proposing, aren't you putting the victim on trial by attempting to ascertain her mental state (which has since been thrown in disarray, to say the least) before the alleged incident?  Do we as a society want to do that in our procedure and especially to our children?

So we don't.  Because the actual examination would be difficult to do, we draw an arbitrary line and say that's the law.  It may not be appropriate in all circumstances, but its application is uniform.

She says she didnt say no or try to stop him, so it isnt considered rape by any means.

She does go on to note that investigators were told that she was "frightened and it was a painful experience for her"  That may be enough to secure a rape conviction on its face, given the other circumstances.  If the individual held power over her due to status, the mental duress could suffice as evidence that, while she did not physically or verbally resist, his "status" as a star athlete and his "experience" (translated as age in this case) could have made her feel that resistance would have been futile. 

So it could be considered rape on its merits also, though proving it would be a little bit more difficult than proving the charge were it to contain use of aggressive force.

Yeah, I don't think consent from a minor makes it OK, but I have a tough time lumping that in with the knife-wielding rapist in a parking garage (sorry for channeling a Sopranos episode) ... or even the date rapist.

But I guess that's what the court system is in place to determine, how egregious an offense this is and how much punishment should be doled out.

[bennie]

Nice to see the Johnnie Dream Team weighing in and coming strong today.

I would also be interested in getting a female perspective on this.  I see Bennie lurking...  

Took me a bit to get caught up on all the posts and pretend to work a bit. I am not going to be able to provide any great insight here. A lot of the things that went through my head have already been brought up here. I do wonder where Luberts' parents were. It did seem a bit odd to bring her to his parent's house for sex.

What one "should" know and what one does know are two very different things.  Unfortunately Luberts is finding this out the hard way.

I don't have any cases that I am working on, but a lot of planning is going into which happy hours are going to be hit when I go to Portland in a couple of weeks! The longer the list gets, the more likely that the light rail will be the mode of transportation!

[johnnie_esq]

Fins and Johnnie Esq-in reading Minnesota Statute section 609-it appears that this alleged offense would be a third degree assault-as the alleged perpetrator was not in a position of authority, correct?

It is Criminal Sexual Conduct in the 3rd degree, but position of authority isn't relevant in this situation, since her age alone imputes the position of authority (it would be relevant if she were 16).  But Minn. Stat. 609.344 does note that, if the alleged victim is between 13 and 16, there is the potential for an affirmative defense regarding his knowledge that she was over the age of 16.  That's going to be difficult, IMHO, since 1.) they were both from Pierz, 2.) other people at the party knew about her age and were openly discussing it. If he didn't know, was his ignorance reasonable?

This statute is admittedly a bit screwy.  But the above should provide a decent first examination.

[57Johnnie]

I have a question for you "senior" Johnnie posters (aka Judge Johnnie Red, Finsleft, ROR, Veek, et al).  Has John Gagliardi and his staff EVER had to deal with any situation similar to this?  If so, when and how was it dealt with?

Tommy,
I go back to John's first year and there wasn't anything like this allegation. We had guys get tossed for academics, drinking/fighting, drinking/accidents (not straight drinking for the 1st offense anyway but messing up as a result of drinking). We probably were no different than kids today but didn't have the advantage/disadvantage of the sexual revolution or lib. In general we placed ladies on a pedestal and/or were afraid of messing up. I believe the ladies then were in the same boat. I can't imagine a senior messing with a teeny-bopper. Then again, I can't imagine screwing up a $130M contract by participating in dog fighting either.

[Willy Wonka]

Wonka has spent much of the day pondering a positive in this situation and finally came up with one.

At least it's not him getting busted with ROR's daughters.

[D O.C.]

Down in this southwest corner of your world there has devolved a cultural divide and on one side of that divide no one turns their head at a 22-23 yr old male impregnating a 14-15 yr old female. They all settle in with one or the other's family and have plenty of baby-sitters. On the other rim are the California/County/City statutory laws-unenforced much like the immigration laws.

[Retired Old Rat]

Wonka has spent much of the day pondering a positive in this situation and finally came up with one.

At least it's not him getting busted with ROR's daughters.

Trust me, that thought crossed my mind as well.

KMack,

IMHO, raising "good kids" is 50% good parenting and 50% good luck.

Not to pat myself (and my wife) too hard on the back, we've done a good job of parenting.  And we've been lucky so far.

[frankrickard]

Wonka has spent much of the day pondering a positive in this situation and finally came up with one.

At least it's not him getting busted with ROR's daughters.

Trust me, that thought crossed my mind as well.

KMack,

IMHO, raising "good kids" is 50% good parenting and 50% good luck.

Not to pat myself (and my wife) too hard on the back, we've done a good job of parenting.  And we've been lucky so far.

I would say it would be more like 25% good parenting, 25% good luck and 50% keeping them away from guys like willy wonka and tdt

[Retired Old Rat]

Frank,

You are wise beyond your years.

[bennie]

There seem to be a lot of younguns getting in trouble in Minnesota lately!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2949057

I must say that those are two of the better looking mugshots I have seen. They may have been having one heck of a party, but at least they don't look like they have been rode hard and put away wet!