FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[oldbethel27]

My last post on this.  College prices are a function of the market, not government policy.  Prices rise to suit demand on a curve representing return (rising then diminishing).  If the government subsidizes tuition then they merely shift the curve to the right, not flatten it.  Prices will inevitably rise to the point of the curve representing peak return, and rise faster than CPI since they are artificially (due to government subsidies in the form of tuition assistance) far down the curve and more distant from the peak - just what we see year after year.  Incidentally, this leads to artificially high prices over time since the government is artificially inflating the market's tolerance for high prices.

I'm not making any argument about the validity or not of gov't tuition assistance, just merely pointing out that any policy like this that the government makes is necessarily temporary in benefit.  Market behavior is beyond the ability of any gov't to control, just ask the Soviets.  Best the gov't can hope for is short term benefit and hope no one notices the real reason for the long term extraordinary inflation of prices as a counter-balance to the short term return.

Spoken like a true Capitalist!  I'm with you 100% on this, and once the institutions begin to see lower attendance to the point where total revenue is decreasing, they'll lower (or increase slower) the tuition accordingly.

[retagent]

What about the kid who has set the record for rushing yards in a career. He is at some D II school in Colorado or Nebraska - can't remember his name right now. He too was viewed as too small. I think a lot of schools/NFL teams/NHL teams have a template that, if you don't fit that size/speed template, they have no desire to look past it and see if you can PLAY THE GAME. Being familiar with hockey, Martin St Louis is a prime example of a small guy who can play the game. The New Jersey Devils have made a habit of finding these types and winning with them. I would assume that Jay Baraball is looking at the same prejudice. There's a guy who played with Milwaukee in the AHL and is now with the Chicago Wolves, Darrin Hayday, who is about 5'9" and 180 lbs. He finished second to Jordan Leopold in the Hobie Baker, and has succeeded at every level at which he played, but has trouble getting up to the NHL. He did get some time with the Thrashers this year, but with their lineup, it will be hard for him to stay.

Also, as long as we're talking colleges, costs and government involvement. It seems to me that the more government money in loans/grants etc is made available, the more the colleges are going to charge. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

[OzJohnnie]

Spoken like a true Capitalist!  I'm with you 100% on this, and once the institutions begin to see lower attendance to the point where total revenue is decreasing, they'll lower (or increase slower) the tuition accordingly.

And after our little spit fight earlier, who would have thought we agreed on anything?  I just like to rumble, but in this case it's easier since I also know what I'm saying is true.

[DustySJU]

I posted this info on the OAC board, but just in case.....

"Official" Pregame Night Before Tailgate Party

Brenda's Place

On State Street near the campus in Alliance.  The time is from 8:30 to whenever.......

Bethel fans are welcome.......

Developing.......   

I walked into a cloud of smoke at Brenda's in December '01 and then stumbled over to MUC stadium and witnessed a different kind of smoke....


Developing....

[TC]

What about the kid who has set the record for rushing yards in a career. He is at some D II school in Colorado or Nebraska - can't remember his name right now. He too was viewed as too small. I think a lot of schools/NFL teams/NHL teams have a template that, if you don't fit that size/speed template, they have no desire to look past it and see if you can PLAY THE GAME. Being familiar with hockey, Martin St Louis is a prime example of a small guy who can play the game. The New Jersey Devils have made a habit of finding these types and winning with them. I would assume that Jay Baraball is looking at the same prejudice. There's a guy who played with Milwaukee in the AHL and is now with the Chicago Wolves, Darrin Hayday, who is about 5'9" and 180 lbs. He finished second to Jordan Leopold in the Hobie Baker, and has succeeded at every level at which he played, but has trouble getting up to the NHL. He did get some time with the Thrashers this year, but with their lineup, it will be hard for him to stay.

Also, as long as we're talking colleges, costs and government involvement. It seems to me that the more government money in loans/grants etc is made available, the more the colleges are going to charge. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

I think Oakland A's General Manager Billy Beane said it best in Moneyball regarding his preference for baseball players rather than athletes:  "We're not selling jeans here."  The problem is, when any athletic organization, pro, collegiate or whatever, has a huge pool of players to choose from, they need to do something to easily (and, often, effectively) eliminate a large amount of potential candidates.  Focusing their efforts on the biggest and most "athletically gifted" players is an easy way to do this.

That leaves a market inefficiency for those willing to sort through the overlooked to find the actual players.  For a long time, the A's were able to take full advantage of this, in the same way I'm sure Mount Union and St. John's do.

[OzJohnnie]

I think a lot of schools/NFL teams/NHL teams have a template that, if you don't fit that size/speed template, they have no desire to look past it and see if you can PLAY THE GAME.

At the risk of inflaming Willy Wonka....

I'll mention that this is happening in Aussie Rules footy as well.  For ages recruitment has been for men that can 'play the game', but in the last 10 years development policy has changed to pure athletes that can 'learn the game'.  On the positive side, the speed, strength and pure spectacle of the game has improved, but the 'freak magic' has declined.  Almost gone are the goofy looking non-athletes with the supernatural nose for the game that seem to consistently pull out the impossible result.

Overall, I rate this a good development, but note that no change (even those that improve) comes without some loss.

[Knightstalker]

It is not just private schools that need to chase the almight dollar.  State colleges are in the same boat now.  In NJ the schools are either hiring or have hired VP's whose sole focus is on external fundraising.  There have been too many budget cuts taking money from the state colleges that they either have to do this or start raising tuitions to even more rediculus levels.  It is a sad state of affairs when state schools start being out of reach to the middle class.

I would argue that no school is out of reach of the middle class.  SJU was expensive, but I did just fine - plenty of aid.

More Americans in raw numbers as well as a higher percentage of Americans attend four year universities than ever.  Either the middle class has raised itself beyond middle or the argument that the middle class can't afford modern universities is more rhetoric than reality.

After attending NJCU I realized that I would have been in less student loan debt if I had gone to a private school.  The NJ state colleges do not give the aid that private schools give.  They don't have the funding or the endowments to afford it, at least the ones I looked at didn't.  The funding has been cut, tuition for a NJ state resident to go to school in NJ is higher than any state colleges in every other state.  Middle class students do not qualify for the federal aid, their families make too much.  They are stuck with loans and whatever scholarships they can qualify for.

Yes more people are attending college but you should also look at the numbers that are coming out of college in serious student loan debt.

[sfury]

What about the kid who has set the record for rushing yards in a career. He is at some D II school in Colorado or Nebraska - can't remember his name right now. He too was viewed as too small. I think a lot of schools/NFL teams/NHL teams have a template that, if you don't fit that size/speed template, they have no desire to look past it and see if you can PLAY THE GAME. Being familiar with hockey, Martin St Louis is a prime example of a small guy who can play the game. The New Jersey Devils have made a habit of finding these types and winning with them. I would assume that Jay Baraball is looking at the same prejudice. There's a guy who played with Milwaukee in the AHL and is now with the Chicago Wolves, Darrin Hayday, who is about 5'9" and 180 lbs. He finished second to Jordan Leopold in the Hobie Baker, and has succeeded at every level at which he played, but has trouble getting up to the NHL. He did get some time with the Thrashers this year, but with their lineup, it will be hard for him to stay.

Also, as long as we're talking colleges, costs and government involvement. It seems to me that the more government money in loans/grants etc is made available, the more the colleges are going to charge. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

I think Oakland A's General Manager Billy Beane said it best in Moneyball regarding his preference for baseball players rather than athletes:  "We're not selling jeans here."  The problem is, when any athletic organization, pro, collegiate or whatever, has a huge pool of players to choose from, they need to do something to easily (and, often, effectively) eliminate a large amount of potential candidates.  Focusing their efforts on the biggest and most "athletically gifted" players is an easy way to do this.

That leaves a market inefficiency for those willing to sort through the overlooked to find the actual players.  For a long time, the A's were able to take full advantage of this, in the same way I'm sure Mount Union and St. John's do.

I don't know about calling Mount and SJU the A's of college football. I'd say they're more the Yankees and Red Sox when it comes to Division III, as far as getting the best of the best at their respective level. It's not like they're winning with guys that the Hamlines and Marietta's of the D3 world have said aren't good enough.

[OzJohnnie]

Yes more people are attending college but you should also look at the numbers that are coming out of college in serious student loan debt.

Ok, so that was not my last post, but I would guess tolerance of this topic is running low so this will be my last post on this.

It's a return on investment argument.  If the value of a degree justifies the debt, then people will continue to go into debt.  If the debt becomes too large for the value of a four year degree, then folks may consider trades or other technical vocations.  There's a sparky (electrician) who lives just down the street from me and I would guess (from reading the paper) that he makes just short of six figures, which is pretty friggin' good.  Tack on that his almost-mansion was built at cost with free labor from his mates and it starts to look to me like he made the better career decisions.  And he doesn't travel like an albatross on steroids.

[D1HawkD3CUI]

It is not just private schools that need to chase the almight dollar.  State colleges are in the same boat now.  In NJ the schools are either hiring or have hired VP's whose sole focus is on external fundraising.  There have been too many budget cuts taking money from the state colleges that they either have to do this or start raising tuitions to even more rediculus levels.  It is a sad state of affairs when state schools start being out of reach to the middle class.

I would argue that no school is out of reach of the middle class.  SJU was expensive, but I did just fine - plenty of aid.

More Americans in raw numbers as well as a higher percentage of Americans attend four year universities than ever.  Either the middle class has raised itself beyond middle or the argument that the middle class can't afford modern universities is more rhetoric than reality.

After attending NJCU I realized that I would have been in less student loan debt if I had gone to a private school.  The NJ state colleges do not give the aid that private schools give.  They don't have the funding or the endowments to afford it, at least the ones I looked at didn't.  The funding has been cut, tuition for a NJ state resident to go to school in NJ is higher than any state colleges in every other state.  Middle class students do not qualify for the federal aid, their families make too much.  They are stuck with loans and whatever scholarships they can qualify for.

Yes more people are attending college but you should also look at the numbers that are coming out of college in serious student loan debt.

Exactly, and many of the entry level jobs that recent grads take make it difficult to make up a lot of ground on those loans while trying to establish themselves. The ROI takes a while to develop in a lot of cases as some of these entry level jobs that require a BA or a BS do not support the month to month expenses as comfortably as you would think.

[Knightstalker]

Yes more people are attending college but you should also look at the numbers that are coming out of college in serious student loan debt.

Ok, so that was not my last post, but I would guess tolerance of this topic is running low so this will be my last post on this.

It's a return on investment argument.  If the value of a degree justifies the debt, then people will continue to go into debt.  If the debt becomes too large for the value of a four year degree, then folks may consider trades or other technical vocations.  There's a sparky (electrician) who lives just down the street from me and I would guess (from reading the paper) that he makes just short of six figures, which is pretty friggin' good.  Tack on that his almost-mansion was built at cost with free labor from his mates and it starts to look to me like he made the better career decisions.  And he doesn't travel like an albatross on steroids.

If I hadn't seriously injured my back I would still be working as a Tool and Die maker and making a hell of a lot more now than I am as an EDI coordinator.  But thems the breaks.

[TC]

What about the kid who has set the record for rushing yards in a career. He is at some D II school in Colorado or Nebraska - can't remember his name right now. He too was viewed as too small. I think a lot of schools/NFL teams/NHL teams have a template that, if you don't fit that size/speed template, they have no desire to look past it and see if you can PLAY THE GAME. Being familiar with hockey, Martin St Louis is a prime example of a small guy who can play the game. The New Jersey Devils have made a habit of finding these types and winning with them. I would assume that Jay Baraball is looking at the same prejudice. There's a guy who played with Milwaukee in the AHL and is now with the Chicago Wolves, Darrin Hayday, who is about 5'9" and 180 lbs. He finished second to Jordan Leopold in the Hobie Baker, and has succeeded at every level at which he played, but has trouble getting up to the NHL. He did get some time with the Thrashers this year, but with their lineup, it will be hard for him to stay.

Also, as long as we're talking colleges, costs and government involvement. It seems to me that the more government money in loans/grants etc is made available, the more the colleges are going to charge. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

I think Oakland A's General Manager Billy Beane said it best in Moneyball regarding his preference for baseball players rather than athletes:  "We're not selling jeans here."  The problem is, when any athletic organization, pro, collegiate or whatever, has a huge pool of players to choose from, they need to do something to easily (and, often, effectively) eliminate a large amount of potential candidates.  Focusing their efforts on the biggest and most "athletically gifted" players is an easy way to do this.

That leaves a market inefficiency for those willing to sort through the overlooked to find the actual players.  For a long time, the A's were able to take full advantage of this, in the same way I'm sure Mount Union and St. John's do.

I don't know about calling Mount and SJU the A's of college football. I'd say they're more the Yankees and Red Sox when it comes to Division III, as far as getting the best of the best at their respective level. It's not like they're winning with guys that the Hamlines and Marietta's of the D3 world have said aren't good enough.

If you look just at D3, sure, you're absolutely correct.  But if you look at college football as a whole I think it makes some sense.  They have built their programs by taking kids with D1 talent but one small flaw in their profile that allows them to slip through the cracks. 

Also, the D3Football.com All-Region teams were announced today.  Congratulations to Nick Gunderson (1st Team), Andrew Salvato (2nd Team), and Mike Schumacher (3rd Team). 

[sfury]

Yeah, I see the argument as far as all of college football, but it's not like they're trying to beat Oklahoma with players the Sooners have deemed unworthy of being D1 (the Gophers...that could be another story). It's just hard to consider the Raiders and Johnnies as plucky underdogs beating the system.

[OzJohnnie]

Yeah, I see the argument as far as all of college football, but it's not like they're trying to beat Oklahoma with players the Sooners have deemed unworthy of being D1 (the Gophers...that could be another story). It's just hard to consider the Raiders and Johnnies as plucky underdogs beating the system.

I think you and TC may be talking (or posting) past each other.  TC's point is that the A's benefited from working a system that let scraps fall through, and that MUC and the J's gain a similar benefit from another system that lets scraps fall through.

Your point is that the J's and MUC are not the A's in that they are not playing the system to compete at the highest level.

Obviously, both points are true.  But I would note that one offers substantive insight into 'the nature of things'  while the other doesn't.

[bennie]

Let me put on my flame retardant suit here!

I think that many of you are looking at this through the eyes of someone coming from a historically middle/upper middle class family. What about bright students coming from historically low income families. What happens to them? It is becoming more and more challenging for state schools to meet the cost of attendance with federal aid for even these students and they don't have mom and dad's "middle income" to help out. Should they just be thrown under the bus while we wait for colleges to lower their tuition cost?  8)

Historically college was only a possibility for white, upper class males. The GI Bill and the Higher Education Act of 1965 opened the door to a whole new group of students but rising costs and diminishing support (both to state schools and financial aid programs) is starting to close that door!