FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[johnnie_esq]

Johnnie Esq. has an excellent article at www.JohnnieFootball.com

just a couple of things I thought I could add:

Both divisions of the NAIA do allow athletic scholarships, the only difference in scholarship limits between the divisions is with Basketball where D-1 gets 11 and D-2 6.

The UMAC was a non-scholarship NAIA conference--probably one of the main reasons for the switch.

Northwestern fields 18 teams, putting it in the upper portion of D-3 schools as far as sports sponsored.

They've almost ruined high school sports with multiple divisions and now they're going to do the same to college.    Everyone cannot win, everybody loves the underdog and politically correct bozos are ruining sports.

- Yes, both NAIA divisions allow scholarships, but as you point out, not every NAIA school uses them.

- I didn't assert that NWC was in the group with fewer sports sponsored.  They are certainly in the group of recent NAIA converts.  There is no voting record, so it is impossible to know whether they would be in favor of less or more restrictions on athletics.  In essence, that seems to be the big dividing line-- who likes redshirts/spring practices versus who does not.

- This isn't the same as high school sports here.  Unlike with high school athletics, whose classifications are based mainly on school size, the current NCAA is proposing a split based upon emphasis on athletics.  I said on the general board that you can think of it this way: D-III would be like SJU, who pours a lot of money into its athletic program and relies heavily upon it for marketing to prospective students and earning donations from alumni; and D-IV would be like Macalester, who uses athletics for student development first and marketing purposes second.  It's not about allowing everyone a trophy-- it is about leveling a playing field in a division where two distinct groups seem to want two different playing fields.

If I were a betting person, my guess is that the MIAC would choose the D-IV route rather than put themselves back against the redshirting like they used to.  Unfortunately, that would likely not mean the end to the excessive OTA advertisements at Johnnie football games.   

[DuffMan]

...everybody loves the underdog...

Not true.

[Knightstalker]

...everybody loves the underdog...

Not true.

Simon Bar-Sinister never loved Underdog.

[57Johnnie]

Johnnie Esq. has an excellent article at www.JohnnieFootball.com

just a couple of things I thought I could add:

Both divisions of the NAIA do allow athletic scholarships, the only difference in scholarship limits between the divisions is with Basketball where D-1 gets 11 and D-2 6.

The UMAC was a non-scholarship NAIA conference--probably one of the main reasons for the switch.

Northwestern fields 18 teams, putting it in the upper portion of D-3 schools as far as sports sponsored.

They've almost ruined high school sports with multiple divisions and now they're going to do the same to college.    Everyone cannot win, everybody loves the underdog and politically correct bozos are ruining sports.

- Yes, both NAIA divisions allow scholarships, but as you point out, not every NAIA school uses them.

- I didn't assert that NWC was in the group with fewer sports sponsored.  They are certainly in the group of recent NAIA converts.  There is no voting record, so it is impossible to know whether they would be in favor of less or more restrictions on athletics.  In essence, that seems to be the big dividing line-- who likes redshirts/spring practices versus who does not.

- This isn't the same as high school sports here.  Unlike with high school athletics, whose classifications are based mainly on school size, the current NCAA is proposing a split based upon emphasis on athletics.  I said on the general board that you can think of it this way: D-III would be like SJU, who pours a lot of money into its athletic program and relies heavily upon it for marketing to prospective students and earning donations from alumni; and D-IV would be like Macalester, who uses athletics for student development first and marketing purposes second.  It's not about allowing everyone a trophy-- it is about leveling a playing field in a division where two distinct groups seem to want two different playing fields.

If I were a betting person, my guess is that the MIAC would choose the D-IV route rather than put themselves back against the redshirting like they used to.  Unfortunately, that would likely not mean the end to the excessive OTA advertisements at Johnnie football games.   

Great article. I'm glad the Writer's Strike is over at JohnnieFootball. +k for ending my withdrawal symtoms. 

[johnnie_esq]

Great article. I'm glad the Writer's Strike is over at JohnnieFootball. +k for ending my withdrawal symtoms. 

We held out for more Hamms.



Thanks for the comments.

[BDB]

Who doesn't like Underdog? 

http://www.spike.com/video/2880821

[Knightstalker]

Who doesn't like Underdog? 

http://www.spike.com/video/2880821

This guy:
And this guy:

[finsleft]

Click here for your daily chuckle. This is pretty good.

[AO]

Johnnie Esq. has an excellent article at www.JohnnieFootball.com

just a couple of things I thought I could add:

Both divisions of the NAIA do allow athletic scholarships, the only difference in scholarship limits between the divisions is with Basketball where D-1 gets 11 and D-2 6.

The UMAC was a non-scholarship NAIA conference--probably one of the main reasons for the switch.

Northwestern fields 18 teams, putting it in the upper portion of D-3 schools as far as sports sponsored.

They've almost ruined high school sports with multiple divisions and now they're going to do the same to college.    Everyone cannot win, everybody loves the underdog and politically correct bozos are ruining sports.

- Yes, both NAIA divisions allow scholarships, but as you point out, not every NAIA school uses them.

- I didn't assert that NWC was in the group with fewer sports sponsored.  They are certainly in the group of recent NAIA converts.  There is no voting record, so it is impossible to know whether they would be in favor of less or more restrictions on athletics.  In essence, that seems to be the big dividing line-- who likes redshirts/spring practices versus who does not.

- This isn't the same as high school sports here.  Unlike with high school athletics, whose classifications are based mainly on school size, the current NCAA is proposing a split based upon emphasis on athletics.  I said on the general board that you can think of it this way: D-III would be like SJU, who pours a lot of money into its athletic program and relies heavily upon it for marketing to prospective students and earning donations from alumni; and D-IV would be like Macalester, who uses athletics for student development first and marketing purposes second.  It's not about allowing everyone a trophy-- it is about leveling a playing field in a division where two distinct groups seem to want two different playing fields.

If I were a betting person, my guess is that the MIAC would choose the D-IV route rather than put themselves back against the redshirting like they used to.  Unfortunately, that would likely not mean the end to the excessive OTA advertisements at Johnnie football games.   

it would seem that the MIAC would be a lock for the D-IV. By contrast, schools like Northwestern (Roseville) and Crown College would appear to remain D-III, as they sponsor fewer sports.

Crown and presentation=fewer sports--Northwestern-8 more than is required by D-3. 

As far as I know, Northwestern does not have a history of redshirting anyone back in the NAIA days.  I can say that was not one of the changes when NWC began the transition process.

It's a shame schools in the MIAC would vote to go to another division and potentially split up the MIAC.  Schools like Macalester might struggle in football in recent years, but they are successul in many other sports and have the potential to restore their football program as well. 

I hope they conduct some sort of study about the competitive advantage of redshirting and spring practice----I seriously doubt either result in more wins.   Maybe a team can load up for one good year with redshirting, but as long as players are only allowed 4 years of eligibility you're going to be playing on a level playing field.     

[johnnie_esq]

Looks like I hadn't finished my thought there, as I should have included their recent NAIA status.  Thanks for pointing that out.  For reference, all MIAC schools sponsor at least 19 sports (excluding St. Catherine but including CSB/SJU; Bethel has only 19 but most members have over 20).

Keep in mind that, while redshirting is certainly a part of the whole issue, it is not the crux of the debate within D-III-- rather, I use it to illustrate the debate since it is one of the best-known reforms to MIAC/SJU fans, as the WIAC and MUC used to practice non-medical redshirting routinely.  The other reforms involve recruiting (I believe the MIAC already has some further limits for this over and above what is allowed under NCAA rules); spring practices (the MIAC has a much more stringent limitation on this than what the already tight NCAA allows); and programs (the NCAA just passed legislation, in a very divided vote, allowing "separate but equal" academic study-hall programs for athletes).  I can foresee much more stringent scrutiny of financial aid programs as well (currently if you are within a 4% (I believe) ratio of aid to athletes versus aid to the general student body, you are ok).  Just because NWC has never redshirted doesn't mean they wouldn't like to use some of the other lessened restrictions on athletics-- and it doesn't mean they would use those either.

I really don't see the MIAC splitting up over this.  I think Mr. Weiner's article was written from an outsider's perspective and it showed, as he only scratched the surface with his explanation of the issues.  Put it this way-- if the MIAC already plays in D-IV rules and are successful, why would they put themselves at risk of losing that competitive advantage?  Furthermore, the schools that are contemplated to head D-IV are schools like Middlebury and Amherst and MIT.  Wouldn't you want to be part of a list with that group, especially if you have some competitive advantages over them? 

It's an interesting thought for a study, AO, but you may already have a lot of the data handy: keep in mind that Northwest Conference members (PLU, Linfield) routinely practiced redshirting until outlawed under the D-III reform package (meaning, no redshirts were allowed prospectively). While Linfield won the walnut and bronze in 2004, the NWC has not had anywhere near the same dominance since that 'Cats team.   The WIAC has seemingly tended to use greyshirting to accomplish the same things as a redshirt did, only they can use it to further enhance their conference-mandated roster limit.   Not to mention that, in my discussions with former D-I coaches, the best reason to go to a bowl is for the 6-8 weeks of extra practice you can have. 

[sjusection105]

   The WIAC has seemingly tended to use greyshirting to accomplish the same things as a redshirt did, only they can use it to further enhance their conference-mandated roster limit.   Not to mention that, in my discussions with former D-I coaches, the best reason to go to a bowl is for the 6-8 weeks of extra practice you can have. 

Esq.- please expand on the definition of greyshirting

[Mr. Ypsi]

There may be other details I'm not familiar with, but basically a redshirt can practice with the team, a greyshirt cannot.

[johnnie_esq]

There may be other details I'm not familiar with, but basically a redshirt can practice with the team, a greyshirt cannot.

Ypsi has it, plus a bit more-- a greyshirt can do all the pre-season workouts, practices et al., but cannot practice with the team once the season starts. 

This enables (not to say all or even some of the WIAC schools do it) a school to effectively redshirt a frosh who wouldn't play anyway, where, after pre-season review and competition, putting him on a regimen of workouts and weightlifting-- just not under the auspices of a coach (but a staffer at the school would be ok) for that year, getting bigger and faster to play at the college level-- which is essentially what a redshirt did anyway.  The difference is that they are not competing against each other in practice. 

[wildcat11]

keep in mind that Northwest Conference members (PLU, Linfield) routinely practiced redshirting until outlawed under the D-III reform package (meaning, no redshirts were allowed prospectively). While Linfield won the walnut and bronze in 2004, the NWC has not had anywhere near the same dominance since that 'Cats team and their 2005 team*.    

*fixed

However, I won't argue that ban of Redshirting has hurt the NWC over the past few seasons.  I believe the conference is adjusting in terms of how to better prepare their 1st year players rather than just to shelf them and have them run scout teams to gain experience.

I believe the NWC will not want to move into the D IV grouping (whatever it may be) but I could see Lewis and Clark and UPS wanting to push the conference in that direction.

[cobbernation]

I know this will be a little off topic, but if the Twins trade off Santana does that mean this could be gags last season at the helm of St. John's Football?