FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[sfury]

3.)  SJU is, in my opinion, doing some things that are exacerbating #2.  Namely, the pre-game glamor stuff (Does anyone really think that a kid from Fulda, MN is really going to be attracted to that sort of stuff.  Is any well-grounded kid who just wants to play football for the winningest college coach going to be impressed by it? I don't think so). 

To add one thing, as someone whose entire family is either from or currently lives in or near the lovely community of Fulda, Minn. (sorry, Bennie), let me say that there haven't been any players from there in the last four years who St. John's would even want. And knowing one Fulda kid in particular - my nephew - who did attend a game last year with a classmate who was being recruited for a different sport at St. Johh's, I guarantee that these small-town rubes weren't upset about pregame glitz and glamour. In fact, shockingly, they actually thought it was sort of cool.

I don't think there's much evidence that the supposed sideshows at the Johnnie games are actually turning off players. Maybe it annoys you or me or other fans over the age of 30. But we're not 18-year-old kids. They appreciate different things than over-the-hill folks. I don't understand the appeal of text-messaging; but that doesn't mean I think teenage kids would be turned off by coaches who use that as a recruiting method.

Before the NCAA banned it - because it was working too well - schools would put recruits in promotional videos that had them starring at the college, or had a uniform for them with their future number. Do you think kids were experiencing that sort of wining and dining from, say, Florida State, and were turned off by it and instead wanted to go play at Yale, where the only pregame festivities consisted of frumpy cheerleaders in ill-fitting uniforms and nerdy bandmembers playing 'Tequila'? Of all the reasons a player might not go to St. John's, I'm guessing that the pregame and promotional festivities at the home games are probably about 798th on the list. There's probably more kids who don't go there because they hate the color red.

I'm surprised they got all those recruits who came to games over the years. I'd have thought they were turned off by the atmosphere of playing in front of 9,000 fans, and would have preferred the "middle class" values at schools that drew 500 fans.

[tmerton]

3.)  SJU is, in my opinion, doing some things that are exacerbating #2.  Namely, the pre-game glamor stuff (Does anyone really think that a kid from Fulda, MN is really going to be attracted to that sort of stuff.  Is any well-grounded kid who just wants to play football for the winningest college coach going to be impressed by it? I don't think so). 

Pre-game glamor stuff   Perhaps you could be more specific.  You mean the new "anthem" or whatever they call it?  If so, that strikes me as a pretty marginal element and hardly likely to offend the sensitivities of prospective players.  And what do "well-grounded" kids from Fulda have to do with lack of talent in the O-line or defensive backfield?  The connection isn't obvious to me.

I suspect there may well be issues regarding SJU recruiting effort, recruiting strategy, etc., but I've yet to see anyone posting here who actually has any real knowledge about what the Johnnies are doing or not doing in this regard.  Gags was quoted as saying the SJU recruited UST's Waldvogel very hard, and the kid was apparently ready to head to SJU before Caruso persuaded him to play for the Tommies, but I don't know how one could ascribe that or other recruiting misses to Johnnie arrogance ("We're St. John's. You come here if you come here), much less pre-game glamor stuff, whatever that is. 

Edit: Too bad I didn't see sfury's post first - I could have saved some time and just said "What he said" instead.

[stanbob]

3.)  SJU is, in my opinion, doing some things that are exacerbating #2.  Namely, the pre-game glamor stuff (Does anyone really think that a kid from Fulda, MN is really going to be attracted to that sort of stuff.  Is any well-grounded kid who just wants to play football for the winningest college coach going to be impressed by it? I don't think so). 

To add one thing, as someone whose entire family is either from or currently lives in or near the lovely community of Fulda, Minn. (sorry, Bennie), let me say that there haven't been any players from there in the last four years who St. John's would even want. And knowing one Fulda kid in particular - my nephew - who did attend a game last year with a classmate who was being recruited for a different sport at St. Johh's, I guarantee that these small-town rubes weren't upset about pregame glitz and glamour. In fact, shockingly, they actually thought it was sort of cool.

To add a bit of levity to this topic, Bennie is from Slayton - bitter rival of Fulda, the USTD of SW Minnesota.   

[Gig Harbor Cat]

Chewey,
  I don't know about the teams back your way, but almost everyone out here is going to the spread O and the QB's are dropping like flies.  Linfield went to their #4 guy at one point in a home game and the kid was wearing a duplicate # of one of the starting DB's,  Whitworth lost a QB, PLU has lost either one or two.  Been an interesting year out here.  And from the sounds of things on this board you guys are having a not so common year as well.
   We have decided to just tailgate harder.

GHC

[janesvilleflash]

Now there's a plan.

[jelio101]

Great Win on Saturday for the Cobbers!! That one was needed badly, with Carlton losing we now are in the drivers seat in the MIAC.  It is so exciting to see them passing the ball.  I was getting frustrated when we would run the ball all day and get stuffed after the first quarter cuz they knew it was coming.  Our D is keeping us in the games, i guess it is true that a good offence will win you games but a great defence will get you a championship.  I dont think that Concordia is a huge powerhouse this year, but it is super exciting to watch.  I also dont think it is ever fair to completely count SJU out.  Yeah its true that Cobbers need to lose two more games, which isnt likely to happen, but the cobber offense hasnt been all that impressive until recently.  SJU has always been a strong team.

Soli Dea Gloria

[FightingCoBB]

Sounds like some excitement from St. Paul!!  More and more thrills as this upside down season rolls on... As I said last week, cant look past Hamline.. their record would not indicate how hard they have worked this season and certainly hats off to the pipers for continuing to keep things interesting for us all.  God Bless the toe of once ridiculed, now adored Cobber Kicker Carl Hauser for keeping the faith in the #38 shirt, like the man that wore it before him, he is becoming a brilliant place man, well done O-ZONE.  Jesse Nelson and Co, also well done.. a career day from the very handsome wide-out Nick Alton as he put it "the most fun I've ever had playing", not to mention some stellar pressure put on the slippery Piper QB by the big guy outta the Brainerd Lakes 99Teeezy-Simply hurtin' fools...  Keep up the good work Maroon, it will pay off.  Wish I could be there to enjoy it.

Soli Deo Gloria

[chewey]

I guess you just wanted to stumble around until you found someone to fight with.  As luck would have it...

Very well.  Here we go.

To sum the argument against you: no one here disagrees (vehemently at least) with your positions on the team.  Your adolescent approach to the issues ("Hey!  I noticed something it must be the first time anyone has!") and childish need to take out your frustrations on the posters here (having already wrung the necks of all your neighborhood kittens, I suppose) is what I, at least, find particularly tiresome.

Very nice, indeed.  What is tiresome is stating viewpoints counter to the Johnnie faithful, such as yourself, and hearing the same old dare to oppose us noise.  If you consider arguing against that as taking frustrations out on other posters, so be it.   You have some fixation on this first time noticing business don't you.  So you've noticed it so no one else can state that they've noticed it.  That's quite sound.  I'm sure adolescent approaches are beneath you what with the wringing of kittens' necks imagery and all.

Have I insisted that everyone declare that I am right? No.  Have I advocated for the firing of the coaching staff?  No (and that is a particularly asinine presumption).  Did I say that the culture and tradition at SJU has collapsed?  No.  Did I indicate that I'm the only one who holds these views?  No. 

This, of course, is exactly the point.  You have advocated nothing.  You have railed.  You have gnashed.  You have rolled your eyes.  But you have offered nothing else.  Snooze.

Yawn.  See your post above having indicated that I am right, etc.  To argue that this is exactly the point when I have indicated that your previous conclusions were senseless and entirely presumptuous and not stated (when you indicated that they had been stated, or at least inferred) only stirs the nothingness pot that is your analysis even more vigorously.  I suppose frustration is beneath you, too.  Oh, I suppose you experienced it first and, therefore, no one else can now.  What exactly have you offered?  I have offered the basic point that SJU has lost some very good players and have indicated the reasons why and have actually tendered the proposition that perhaps SJU may wish to change what it does, especially in this more competitive recruiting arena, to get them.   Maybe you've thought this before yourself or actually have given voice to it though, right?

Well, you do suggest that SJU adopt an unpretentious philosophy in their pre-game show, but even I doubt you intend that to be the cure for the ills that ail.  (It also may be a good idea if the administration avoid your counsel when trying to determine how to behave unpretentiously.)

Yes, yes, of course.  I am sure I've got it covered with respect to pretentiousness.  That's the one area or thing that you really have not thought about in contrast to your voluminous cache of football remembrances/observations that now one else is allowed commentary on, right?  Maybe you're one of the people who were involved in that show which is why criticism of it particularly galls you.  Well, that's a good place to start, in my opinion.

Believe it or not, without differing opinions there is something that's very valuable that is lost.  It's called discourse.  If the expression of a different point of view that tends to assault a collective ivory tower equanimity generates some sort of animus against me, that's fine and it's all part of the process.  I've probably been disliked  by good people for inane reasons before.

Interesting.  Those that feel your approach is overbearing and unpleasant, not disagreeing with your points just the ugly way you promote them, are living in a "collective ivory tower" and are "inane."  Even you refer to your methods as an "assault."

Whether you like the delivery or not, one does not need to look very far back on this site to see how disagreement with those that wear the school's coat of arms  tends to be labeled unpleasant.   Many of the SJU loyalty just don't take pointed criticism even if it's stated in such a way not to scuttle your genteel sensibilities.

I also suggest that the administration avoid your counsel when deciding on the appropriate way to teach students effective techniques in discourse.  Unless, of course, they are in need of a negative example.  

They also better call you to be sure that you've not discussed the topics that they may be discussing or already observed the matters that may be observed in that discourse.  They might have the "that's never been stated or observed before" police after them.  Gosh, and I thought they had enough problems with campus security at football games.  I'm not even going to get into my use of a verb (assault) and an image (collective ivory tower) and an adjective (inane) to describe the response of some SJU faithful's reaction to points that go against the usual SJU conventional wisdom  -- it's ok, never change anything.  Hint:  They were used to describe the response of some SJU faithful's raction to points that go against the usual SJU conventional wisdom  -- it's ok, never change anything.  The points may be as old as the hills, especially since you've, no doubt, previously considered them.  The possible implementation of them is not and that's the point.  The point is that maybe they should be implemented.

My points are:

1.)  I believe there has been a diminution in the talent level at SJU over the past 3  years, particularly on the offensive line and, to a lesser degree, the defensive secondary.

2.)  SJU has probably lost and is probably losing many very good athletes because of its apparent "We're St. John's.  You come here if you come here" position which is being more keenly felt these days with more and more recruiting competition in the MIAC.

3.)  SJU is, in my opinion, doing some things that are exacerbating #2.  Namely, the pre-game glamor stuff (Does anyone really think that a kid from Fulda, MN is really going to be attracted to that sort of stuff.  Is any well-grounded kid who just wants to play football for the winningest college coach going to be impressed by it? I don't think so). 

4.)  In good years, maybe SJU should start putting in the 3rd, 4th, 5th strings in at the start or mid-way of the 3rd quarter to see who can do whatever so that the lean times are mitigated or do not come to pass.  In the most likely worst case scenario, you wind up winning a game by 20 instead of 45. 

So, if no one really disagrees with your points, what is it they disagree with?  The insights you present here as old in their obviousness as the season.  Let me hint: your approach.

So you presume to impose yourself upon what everyone else agrees with or disagrees with?  Again, I'm sure I've not cornered the market on pretension.  Obviously some disagree with them as has been previously expressed.  

Like it or not and whether it's true or not, there is a perceived "arrogance" about SJU that turns some kids away and that other MIAC coaches, no doubt, use quite deftly to their advantage.  To portray someone who dares express these possibilities as an uncharitable, unappreciative, puerile and dyspeptic gadfly only authenticates and verifies that it may not merely be a perception.  Kids go to schools for different reasons, it's true.  However, the attraction for St. John's is exactly because it has not been the hyper-glamor business for students and athletes.

Wow, what a practical lesson in projection.  SJU suffers from arrogance, yet it is you that rails against the description of being a "uncharitable, unappreciative, puerile and dyspeptic gadfly."  It goes without saying, of course, that you fail your silly quoting game from above as no one used these words.

Again.  See commentary regarding consequences for general disagreement with some of the SJU loyalty

SJU suffers from arrogance, yet you go after DuffMan with this: "Your Kool Aid avatar is apropos in that you must be punch drunk from drinking it."

I am sure DuffMan can handle it and can appreciate a pointed exchange.  Despite your many observations and conclusions and agruments and positions that no one else is allowed to maintain, you've never heard of the "driking the Kool Aid" and getting "punch drunk" from it adage.  Shocking.  See commentary above regarding having the Furies come after you should you state things that are not particularly palatable to certain SJU faithful.  

SJU suffers from arrogance, yet you define those that disagree with your approach as believing "the appropriate mindset is to coddle, be shrouded in denial, make excuses, ignore the obvious and continue course unchanged."

Again.  See above with respect to general statement of positions that may offend certain sensibilities of certain Johnnie faithful.  They have lost athletes, very good ones.  Yet it seems as though blind faith in the continue the course unchanged mindset serves as justification for not doing things to go after them.  To put faith in what has been done in a market that has much more competition than before is all of the above and more.

You advocate discourse, yet when people respond to your charges you say, "That is not being "supportive" of a team; that is called being a sycophant."

?? Reading comprehension again.  The point is that offering criticism is not indicative of a lack of support and that simply ahering to the way things are and simply suggesting that things need not be done differently is not indicative of support.

You advocate for differing opinions, but those that disagree with your hamfisted declaration "SJU sucks" are, in your opinion, "blind-folded kisser{s} of maximum SJU butt."

Gee that's - "SJU sucks" - never been said before, especially this year.  The Vikings have sucked.  The Twins' pitchers have sucked.  So what?  Many do kiss butt but that is not indicative of support, necessarily.
It is painfully clear that you are man in love with your own voice (or type).  Many people refer to folks such as yourself as a "blowhard."  And you can quote me on that.

I can even quote you on that though it is a term and concept that you've considered?  Pot meet kettle.  As I've said above, I've probably been disliked by better people than you.  

[chewey]

3.)  SJU is, in my opinion, doing some things that are exacerbating #2.  Namely, the pre-game glamor stuff (Does anyone really think that a kid from Fulda, MN is really going to be attracted to that sort of stuff.  Is any well-grounded kid who just wants to play football for the winningest college coach going to be impressed by it? I don't think so). 

To add one thing, as someone whose entire family is either from or currently lives in or near the lovely community of Fulda, Minn. (sorry, Bennie), let me say that there haven't been any players from there in the last four years who St. John's would even want. And knowing one Fulda kid in particular - my nephew - who did attend a game last year with a classmate who was being recruited for a different sport at St. Johh's, I guarantee that these small-town rubes weren't upset about pregame glitz and glamour. In fact, shockingly, they actually thought it was sort of cool.

I don't think there's much evidence that the supposed sideshows at the Johnnie games are actually turning off players. Maybe it annoys you or me or other fans over the age of 30. But we're not 18-year-old kids. They appreciate different things than over-the-hill folks. I don't understand the appeal of text-messaging; but that doesn't mean I think teenage kids would be turned off by coaches who use that as a recruiting method.

Before the NCAA banned it - because it was working too well - schools would put recruits in promotional videos that had them starring at the college, or had a uniform for them with their future number. Do you think kids were experiencing that sort of wining and dining from, say, Florida State, and were turned off by it and instead wanted to go play at Yale, where the only pregame festivities consisted of frumpy cheerleaders in ill-fitting uniforms and nerdy bandmembers playing 'Tequila'? Of all the reasons a player might not go to St. John's, I'm guessing that the pregame and promotional festivities at the home games are probably about 798th on the list. There's probably more kids who don't go there because they hate the color red.

I'm surprised they got all those recruits who came to games over the years. I'd have thought they were turned off by the atmosphere of playing in front of 9,000 fans, and would have preferred the "middle class" values at schools that drew 500 fans.

I used Fulda as an example.  If you want present day real-time examples, think south central Minnesota area.  They have lost some extremely good recruits recently, 9000 fans or not, and it is a fact that other coaches do use the show that is pre-game, that they won't get in until their senior year (if at all), the "we are SJU" stance, etc. to their advantage.  It is having a greater impact now.  All you have to do is know, from church, business or just going to games, some parents of a couple good high school athletes.   

[chewey]

Chewey,
  I don't know about the teams back your way, but almost everyone out here is going to the spread O and the QB's are dropping like flies.  Linfield went to their #4 guy at one point in a home game and the kid was wearing a duplicate # of one of the starting DB's,  Whitworth lost a QB, PLU has lost either one or two.  Been an interesting year out here.  And from the sounds of things on this board you guys are having a not so common year as well.
   We have decided to just tailgate harder.

GHC

I understand that QB's are more at risk with that kind of offense and that's too bad that you guys are down to yoru 4th string.  It's a bit of a bummer to not see you guys roll into the post=season and play you guys win or lose.  It's always fun pre-game banter, if nothing else.   I enjoyed watching the David Russell's and the George Carters, and the Andrew Ford's and the Tyler Matthew's and that other really tough receiver you had (I forget his name but you all said he was better than Carter).  Hopefully, this is only a temporarly lull in both programs and we'll see that caliber of players again.  I think the MIAC is experiencing more parity in recruiting. It is good for other programs to get in the post-season and see what they can do.  Bethel's run was exciting to watch last year, even as an SJU supporter.   Whoever gets there from the MIAC will have been through the fire to get there.  Hopefully, who ever it is will win a couple.     

[tmerton]

I guess you just wanted to stumble around until you found someone to fight with.  As luck would have it...

Very well.  Here we go.

I could have sworn I heard Oz saying "Oh, please don't throw me in that briar patch" ... yes, I think I did.

I hope you'll consider taking this off-line.  I doubt there is great interest here in watching you and Oz continue your engagement in this mortal kombat.

[chewey]

I guess you just wanted to stumble around until you found someone to fight with.  As luck would have it...

Very well.  Here we go.

I could have sworn I heard Oz saying "Oh, please don't throw me in that briar patch" ... yes, I think I did.

I hope you'll consider taking this off-line.  I doubt there is great interest here in watching you and Oz continue your engagement in this mortal kombat.

Well, that's fair enough; a good directive. 

[janesvilleflash]

tmerton calls nap time. Nicely done.

[cobbernation]

The cobbers were fortunate to leave klas field yesterday with a victory!  The safety in the 4th quarter was huge, but not as big as the phantom pass interference call on 4th and 5 with under a minute to go in the game.  Oh well, it was a great win and Hamline deserves a lot of credit.  They kept the cobber running game in check all afternoon.  However, I was surprised that cory johnson didn't get the ball more often.  I hope the cobbers take it one game at a time and finish the season strong!

Go Cobbers!

SJU faithful,

Looking back at last season for the johnnies, when did AK finally leave the game due to blowing out the opposing team?  If he stayed in the entire game when you're up by 30+ points late, then this is a coaching flaw.  Didn't the staff think to take him out of the game and give experience to the younger qb's?

[chewey]

tmerton calls nap time. Nicely done.

Now, you've had plenty of nap times, previously.  Don't get all sanctimonious now.