MBB: Midwest Conference

[System Error]

Surprised to see IC struggle so much this week after such a promising start to the season. Beloit can be a tough place to play. Although they went 1-1, great weekend for Beloit. They seem to be coming together a bit.

[larry_u]

This week's pickem games up, standings/results to be updated this afternoon.

One game TUESDAY NIGHT so get those picks in asap...

[hoop_junkie]

No offense to the "System" but I hope never to watch GC play again. I watched the podcast vs STN and thought that it was a travesty to the game to be down 25-30 points and have one of your players near the half court stripe hoping your other 4 defenders could give up a quick hoop so you could "basket hang" with the intent to get a 3 point shot.    Why anyone outside of the Midwest Conf would want to schedule a game against them is beyond me

I think you have to understand that their system is a "bastardization" of the game of basketball and the reasons behind why coach Arsenault went to playing it. First of all at an institution that's as acadmically strong as Grinnell you're not always going to be able to get the right players to come play there. Also, it's a style that is very attractive to players. How many kids would like to play for a school that gives them free will to jack the rock? It allows you to play 15-20 kids w/relative ease which means that freshman know they will play right away. It's easy to be critical of their style of play, but it generally gives them a good chance to win by neutralizing their deficiency in talent. St. Norbert is one of the best defensive teams in the country and I don't care what style you play, coach Grzesk is going to find a way to keep the opposition in check offensively. I didn't see the game but I'm sure that SNC "built a wall" in transition against Grinnell and probably contested more shots than GC is used to having contested. And as a result GC probably felt like they needed to adjust by leaking a shooter out to half court, which is something that they typically don't do.

[jeffdc]

Final in De Pere: STN 108- GC 73

Wow, what a rough game for the Pioneers today. I would have to say that was embarrassing to watch after seeing Grinnell play the last four years or so.

Gotta agree. One of the worst halfs I have seen from GC in 10 years.

It feels like there are 2 GC teams. One - the one that showed up against IC, or the 1st half of CC - plays the System pretty well, albeit with some freshman 'duh' moments, but with solid team interaction and support.

The other team - 2nd half of STN and CC - is a zombie team, throwing away the ball, moving tentatively and slowly, unable to commit, and unable to work together.

I for one would prefer the 1st team showed up - for an entire game.

[Gregory Sager]

No offense to the "System" but I hope never to watch GC play again. I watched the podcast vs STN and thought that it was a travesty to the game to be down 25-30 points and have one of your players near the half court stripe hoping your other 4 defenders could give up a quick hoop so you could "basket hang" with the intent to get a 3 point shot.    Why anyone outside of the Midwest Conf would want to schedule a game against them is beyond me

I think you have to understand that their system is a "bastardization" of the game of basketball and the reasons behind why coach Arsenault went to playing it. First of all at an institution that's as acadmically strong as Grinnell you're not always going to be able to get the right players to come play there.

Yes, because if there's anything we've all noticed over the years, it's the serious difficulty that academically strong D3 schools such as Wash U, Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Rochester, NYU, Franklin & Marshall, etc., have had in competing on the basketball court.

Look, Grinnell fans ... there are myriad reasons why Coach Arseneault concocted the System, and some of those reasons are good ones. But could we please pull the plug on the whole "Grinnell is so academically exclusive that it requires gimmickry for the school to recruit basketball players" routine? The fact of the matter is that D3 schools that are as good, if not better, than Grinnell with regard to academic reputation -- schools whose basketball programs use standard offensive and defensive sets -- have not only managed to find and attract recruits to play for them, they've reached Elite Eights and Final Fours and have even won national championships with them.

[Put up a #]

We do spend a lot of time talking on this board about Grinnell and The System. And, there are apologists both ways; when the team is winning championships and when they're in the cellar.

The Grinnell system CAN work. We've all seen that. With the right players committed to the common goal. But you do need the right players.

And the Grinnell staff tries to recruit the best players possible. NOT the best system players, because there are virtually none of those coming out of high school. But it is tough to sell the middle of Iowa to a kid who can go to Williams, Amherst, Chicago, etc.. It's not an eastern establishment location, nor is it a major metropolitan urban location. And there are no "special admits" held for the basketball team, as at some other premier institutions.

All that being said, I would proudly compare the players who have suited up for Grinnell over the last 10 years , and their record of championships with any team in the MWC.

The Coaches A will build up their arsenal and be a force again before too long. And, maybe a spoiler this year as well.

[pgkevin]

We do spend a lot of time talking on this board about Grinnell and The System. And, there are apologists both ways; when the team is winning championships and when they're in the cellar.

The Grinnell system CAN work. We've all seen that. With the right players committed to the common goal. But you do need the right players.

And the Grinnell staff tries to recruit the best players possible. NOT the best system players, because there are virtually none of those coming out of high school. But it is tough to sell the middle of Iowa to a kid who can go to Williams, Amherst, Chicago, etc.. It's not an eastern establishment location, nor is it a major metropolitan urban location. And there are no "special admits" held for the basketball team, as at some other premier institutions.

All that being said, I would proudly compare the players who have suited up for Grinnell over the last 10 years , and their record of championships with any team in the MWC.

The Coaches A will build up their arsenal and be a force again before too long. And, maybe a spoiler this year as well.

Perhaps they already have, that loss they gave to Lake Forest could loom large at the end of the year, with Lake Forest sitting at 3-3 currently.

[Gregory Sager]

And the Grinnell staff tries to recruit the best players possible. NOT the best system players, because there are virtually none of those coming out of high school. But it is tough to sell the middle of Iowa to a kid who can go to Williams, Amherst, Chicago, etc.. It's not an eastern establishment location, nor is it a major metropolitan urban location.

Now, that is one of the legitimate hurdles of which I spoke that Grinnell has to overcome. Grinnell is not in a good location for a school that recruits a nationally-based student body both inside and outside of its athletic department.

And there are no "special admits" held for the basketball team, as at some other premier institutions.

I have yet to see any evidence that Grinnell's student-athletes are academically superior to those recruited by UAA and NESCAC schools.

[Scots4]

Personally, I never wanted to play for Grinnell because no matter what you accomplish there individually there are always skeptics about how good you are. I am one of those skeptics.

[hoop_junkie]

Another struggle beyond Grinnell's location is that Iowa HS basketball in itself is not as strong as other Midwest states. There are only so many quality players out there and it doesn't help when the talent pool is weak in one's own backyard. I truly believe that St. Norbert and Lawrence have a great advantage over a lot of schools simply because basketball in the Fox Cities area is usually VERY good. Despite having to compete w/WIAC teams for players, that area is a goldmine for talent.

[pgkevin]

Stealing Titan Q's gimmick from the CCIW room

Home win = +0
Road win = +1
Home loss = -1
Road loss = +0

St. Norberts  +2
Ripon  +2
Carroll  +1
Illinois College  +1
Lake Forest  0
Lawrence  0
Knox   -1
Beloit  -1
Monmouth -2
Grinnell  -3

[pgkevin]

I know there isn't as much in depth analysis on this board as the CCIW, but this is an interesting way to look at a team's record more in depth based on home and road games played.  Essentially, this values a road win more than a home win, and penalizes a home loss more than a road loss.  (as should be)

[pgkevin]

Should be an interesting final 10 games of the conference season.  Seems to me like the race has been narrowed down to 6 teams (2-5 Beloit is a season away).

Tier 1
St. Norbert
Ripon

Tier 2
Carroll
Illinois College
Lake Forest
Lawrence

Tier 3
Beloit
Knox
Monmouth
Grinnell

I think one could intelligently make a case that Ripon should be moved down to Tier 2, as Norb's may be in a MWC class by themselves this season.  Of the next 5, I could really see any of them finishing anywhere from 2-6.

Hoch and Gillespie and Dekker elevate their respective teams to another level, but will they have to carry too much in the end?

Which leaves Lake Forest and Illinois College.  Two completely different styles that have seemingly embraced the team concept.  Lake Forest, more of a grind it out defensive type team that centers around Clark, and Illinois College a more outrun and outgun you with Stewart  and Tucker.  It seems as Lake Forest is coming together (3 straight wins) Illinois College may be losing whatever they had (2 straight losses).

[Titan Q]

Stealing Titan Q's gimmick from the CCIW room

Home win = +0
Road win = +1
Home loss = -1
Road loss = +0

St. Norberts  +2
Ripon  +2
Carroll  +1
Illinois College  +1
Lake Forest  0
Lawrence  0
Knox   -1
Beloit  -1
Monmouth -2
Grinnell  -3

It's always good to have a gimmick.

Just FYI, your numbers are off somewhere.  You have "+" total of 6 and a "-" total of 7.  Debits must equal credits with this gimmick. 

[wizbegs1304]

What are your thoughts on the top 4? SNC, Ripon, IC, and Carroll is my guesses. Those teams have been playing well all year and will be in the conference tournament at the end.

Lake Forest is making a nice push and Beloit is playing better as of late. But I don't see much changing in the top 4 through the rest of the year.

I attended the Lawrence vs. Carroll game last night and was suprised that Lawrence did not come out with much energy or desire. Watching them in the past especially they seemed to bring a lot of enthusiasm and intensity.

Carroll's Eric Williams had one heck of a dunk in the first half. After searching youtube earlier today, I finally found the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjgqEIpLQrA