MBB: Midwest Conference

[jeffdc]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20121125/SPORTS/311250055/Grinnell-s-Jack-Taylor-follows-138-point-night-with-21-in-defeat?Sports&nclick_check=1

[augie77]

I'm late to this discussion, but one solution to the Grinnell debacle is for potential opposing teams to simply not schedule Grinnell.  Conference teams may have no choice, but an organized boycott by all respectable non-conference teams/coaches would quickly send a message that the game to be played is basketball--not the farce it has become with Grinnell (schedule a weakling and go for a record, winning by 75).  I noticed that according to the second half box score, not a single starter besides the "record breaker" even attempted a shot--though they still played regular minutes, by Grinnell standards.   

Is Grinnell's weak schedule partly a reflection of competitive teams having already taken this approach with Grinnell, thus forcing Grinnell's hand?  Either way, sportsmanship dictates not winning by 75, no matter the system or style.  And going into a game with the goal of setting a record is hideous!

[frodotwo]

Finally figured out 'Jack Parkman' - he is an occasional poster on the NWC football board, who was quite active before and after the NCC game at Linfield.  I KNEW this was all because I was still in football mode!

Or it could have been from the movie Major League II. Jack Parkman was the high priced talent hired by new owner Roger Dorn. Huge talent and bigger ego and personality that only his mother could love.

[KnightSlappy]

Which would have been worse sportsmanship: to win by 75 with a player setting the all-time individual scoring mark, or to win by 100+ with no one player scoring more than, say, 40?

[augie77]

I can conceive of a complete mismatch (say Indiana University versus Bloomington High School) where winning by 100 would be virtually unavoidable--where the end of the bench plays the majority of minutes and still steamrolls the opposition.  That would be a scheduling fiasco, but the players still need to play--even if the coach is trying to call off the dogs.

The 75 point win by Grinnell is egregious simply because it was a concerted effort from the opening buzzer to put the ball in the basket at record setting pace with no regard to the score or humiliating the opponent.

[KnightSlappy]

I can conceive of a complete mismatch (say Indiana University versus Bloomington High School) where winning by 100 would be virtually unavoidable--where the end of the bench plays the majority of minutes and still steamrolls the opposition.  That would be a scheduling fiasco, but the players still need to play--even if the coach is trying to call off the dogs.

The 75 point win by Grinnell is egregious simply because it was a concerted effort from the opening buzzer to put the ball in the basket at record setting pace with no regard to the score or humiliating the opponent.

They actually didn't try to score as many team points as possible, they tried to score as many Jack Taylor points as possible. I think if they were going for faster/better shots by the entire team, they'd have scored (and won by) many more points.

One could argue that Grinnell did call off the dogs to some degree. Taylor didn't really try to rebound, he didn't really try to play defense, and the Pioneers couldn't have made their game plan any more obvious. I'm not necessarily defending them, but I'm not sure margin of victory is really an issue here. No one got up in arms about Hope's 98 point win earlier in the year.

[augie77]

Agreed.  If Grinnell had won by 75 points (or even 100) with the end of the bench doing most of the damage it would not be as upsetting.  On the other hand, sportsmanship doesn't call for intense pressure with a 40 plus point lead, and Grinnell's whole system is predicated on that pressure.  That might be the time for Grinnell to practice some standard basketball formations and use the shot clock. 

How do the Midwest Conference rivals feel about Grinnell's "go for the record" approach to basketball?

[scottie]

Agreed.  If Grinnell had won by 75 points (or even 100) with the end of the bench doing most of the damage it would not be as upsetting.  On the other hand, sportsmanship doesn't call for intense pressure with a 40 plus point lead, and Grinnell's whole system is predicated on that pressure.  That might be the time for Grinnell to practice some standard basketball formations and use the shot clock. 

How do the Midwest Conference rivals feel about Grinnell's "go for the record" approach to basketball?

Feel free to scroll back over the past few pages....I doubt there is any more that will be added to the subject that hasn't already been written. 

[augie77]

I've read all the posts, and much of the opposition seems to cme from non-Nidwest Conference folks.  I'm not certain who the Midwest Conference commenters are on this subject, excluding the GC guys.

[cciwrabblerouser]

I'm late to this discussion, but one solution to the Grinnell debacle is for potential opposing teams to simply not schedule Grinnell.  Conference teams may have no choice, but an organized boycott by all respectable non-conference teams/coaches would quickly send a message that the game to be played is basketball--not the farce it has become with Grinnell (schedule a weakling and go for a record, winning by 75).  I noticed that according to the second half box score, not a single starter besides the "record breaker" even attempted a shot--though they still played regular minutes, by Grinnell standards.   

Is Grinnell's weak schedule partly a reflection of competitive teams having already taken this approach with Grinnell, thus forcing Grinnell's hand?  Either way, sportsmanship dictates not winning by 75, no matter the system or style.  And going into a game with the goal of setting a record is hideous!

i completely agree.  the only way grinnell's basketball coach and athletics director are going to learn from this is if other division-III schools refuse to play them.  here are some reasons why they should not schedule grinnell:  1) they do not respect their opponents;  2) they do not teach or build character when they decide to embarrass an opponent;  3)  their view of teamwork is to feed the ball to one player, so their concept of teamwork leaves a lot to be desired;  4) they are most interested in setting some sort of bogus record than they are in playing any kind of defense;  5) what they did was  a  travesty that demeaned all of division-III.  the view of division-III basketball is that it has a circus atmosphere to it -- and the clowns are leading grinnell basketball.

i have no dog in this fight.  but i do decry the fact that there is no educational benefit to such a debacle.  grinnell has prostituted iteself for the sake  of publicity.

[jeffdc]

Geez - if the MWC didn't have Grinnell to argue about, would there be *anything* on this board?

I think not...

[scottie]

I've read all the posts, and much of the opposition seems to c

• me from non-[M]idwest Conference folks.  I'm not certain who the Midwest Conference commenters are on this subject, excluding the GC guys.
  

Okay, well it's probably safe to say that the non-Grinnell MWC posters feel the same way as the rest of you.  Keep in mind, however, that The System is not new and these discussions get recycled every year.  I think the Terry Licht blog article sums it up best:

"....let's look at the competition that these record-breaking feats happened against.

During Lentsch's scoring barrage last year, Grinnell was playing against Principia, who finished 0-25 and didn't win a game in the St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, statistically one of the weaker conferences in the nation.

Taylor and the Pioneers faced Faith Baptist, a team that doesn't play in the NCAA, but the National Christian College Athletic Association, traditionally made up of smaller private Christian colleges.

This team also lost 12 of the 15 players from their varsity squad this year.

So both of these feats happened against inferior talent, coupled with the whole team feeding them the ball in a system that is notorious for putting up ridiculous numbers of points. Think about that when you look at the record."

In other words, the "go for the record" approach doesn't creep into MWC games. The opponents know whats coming and usually are at least semi-prepared for it.  If anything, it's usually the opponent who reaches team/individual scoring records against Grinnell - win or lose, and inflated as they may be.

(And, JeffDC, to answer your question....yes, we'd talk about Monmouth Football, probably.)   

[fightingscots13]

So, if I'm following all of this correctly and GC uses games like Faith Baptist to boost shooting percentages and confidence, then after Taylor's most recent 3-13 three-point effort against WP, we should expect him to put up another 100 shots soon?? #ArmsAreTooTired 

[Maverick]

I've read all the posts, and much of the opposition seems to c

• me from non-[M]idwest Conference folks.  I'm not certain who the Midwest Conference commenters are on this subject, excluding the GC guys.
  

Okay, well it's probably safe to say that the non-Grinnell MWC posters feel the same way as the rest of you.  Keep in mind, however, that The System is not new and these discussions get recycled every year.  I think the Terry Licht blog article sums it up best:

"....let's look at the competition that these record-breaking feats happened against.

During Lentsch's scoring barrage last year, Grinnell was playing against Principia, who finished 0-25 and didn't win a game in the St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, statistically one of the weaker conferences in the nation.

Taylor and the Pioneers faced Faith Baptist, a team that doesn't play in the NCAA, but the National Christian College Athletic Association, traditionally made up of smaller private Christian colleges.

This team also lost 12 of the 15 players from their varsity squad this year.

So both of these feats happened against inferior talent, coupled with the whole team feeding them the ball in a system that is notorious for putting up ridiculous numbers of points. Think about that when you look at the record."

In other words, the "go for the record" approach doesn't creep into MWC games. The opponents know whats coming and usually are at least semi-prepared for it.  If anything, it's usually the opponent who reaches team/individual scoring records against Grinnell - win or lose, and inflated as they may be.

(And, JeffDC, to answer your question....yes, we'd talk about Monmouth Football, probably.)   

scottie - The Scots football team does have plenty of young talent returning for next season!

[woosterbooster]

I have no problem with The System.  I DO have a problem with it being perverted to aggrandize one individual, against a clearly over-matched opponent you beat by 75 points.  THAT is my issue, not The System.  This was NOT teammates deferring to the 'hot hand' (since he wasn't even hot!); this was a pre-planned attempt at erasing the record (previously held by a Grinnell player ).  I do NOT blame Jack Parkman (or his teammates); they were just doing what the coach ordered.  I DO blame David Arsenault for abysmal sportsmanship and a total bastardization of d3 philosophy and the concept of TEAM sports.  The d3 world has noticed that he never attempts such records against teams that are composed of actual basketball players!

I completely agree with this.  Although I would add that once any team gets up by 30-40 points they should be playing defense in the half court only.