MBB: Midwest Conference

[cciwrabblerouser]

just to set the record straight -- i really wasn't serious in suggesting grinnell leave d-III.  it was said to point out that what the coach did was just not at all in the spirit of the d-III philosophy.  it was nothing more than that.

through this 'event' i hope that grinnell's staff won't think that having one guy score an outrageous number of points was a good idea.  the stunt definitely backfired and grinnell has lost lots of credibility.

[systemfan86]

just to set the record straight -- i really wasn't serious in suggesting grinnell leave d-III.  it was said to point out that what the coach did was just not at all in the spirit of the d-III philosophy.  it was nothing more than that.

through this 'event' i hope that grinnell's staff won't think that having one guy score an outrageous number of points was a good idea.  the stunt definitely backfired and grinnell has lost lots of credibility.

Fair enough.

What I wanted to add is that in many other ways, Grinnell's team exceeds in many of the areas of D3 philosophy: student participation (number of team members), playing time for all team members, and enjoyment of the game (whether you like one particular performance or not, there is little argument that the players enjoy playing on this team).

We can debate the merits of a single performance but to do so without looking at the overall picture isn't fair. On balance (and that's key), I think an argument can be made that they are a model D3 program. Like all programs, they can still improve.

[scottie]

just to set the record straight -- i really wasn't serious in suggesting grinnell leave d-III.  it was said to point out that what the coach did was just not at all in the spirit of the d-III philosophy.  it was nothing more than that.

through this 'event' i hope that grinnell's staff won't think that having one guy score an outrageous number of points was a good idea.  the stunt definitely backfired and grinnell has lost lots of credibility.

Fair enough.

What I wanted to add is that in many other ways, Grinnell's team exceeds in many of the areas of D3 philosophy: student participation (number of team members), playing time for all team members, and enjoyment of the game (whether you like one particular performance or not, there is little argument that the players enjoy playing on this team).

We can debate the merits of a single performance but to do so without looking at the overall picture isn't fair. On balance (and that's key), I think an argument can be made that they are a model D3 program. Like all programs, they can still improve.

That might be a slight stretch, as one could argue that the number of bodies (fouls available) and playing time ("rotations") are simply tools to enhance the system. 

[woosterbooster]

I'm a fan of DIII Wooster, and of DIII basketball in general.  However, this contrived record-setting incident doesn't just bother me because it involves a DIII team.  Had it been done by an Ohio State player against Lake Erie College, I think I'd be almost as annoyed.  It's the whole sportsmanship and integrity (of the record) thing that I find at issue, and I think that battle needs to be fought wherever it occurs.

Until this happened, I didn't know much about Grinnell College.  After reading the remarks on here, regarding their academics, I did a little research.  I found out that their Gender-Neutral housing policy annoyed Fox News.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ashleybaccam/fox-and-friends-bash-grinnell-colleges-gender

That's good enough for me; I'm a fan of anyone who can get under the skin of that group of louts, for whatever reason.  But that's the school itself, it's philosophical stance.  And knowing that now, it maybe makes it more upsetting, or at least more confusing, that the basketball program would engage in what they did.  I'd expect it more out of a lesser institution.

So learn from this Grinnell.  The basis of the "system" is fine.  Just top it off with a little more pregame thought as to the consequences of your actions. 

[scottie]

.....coming from a guy with a Karma rating of -90.  Geez, things must be rough over in Ohio. 

Let me try to end the discussion by making a comparison to the pop-culture televsion genre.  Although I have never seen this show, it is described as such: "Critical reaction to the series has been mixed, with some characterizing the show as 'offensive,' 'outrageous' and 'exploitative,' while others calling it 'must-see TV.'  If you will all agree that the same can be said about Grinnell, then Scottie proclaims the Pioneers as the "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" of college basketball. 

Next topic!  (drops microphone)

[systemfan86]

just to set the record straight -- i really wasn't serious in suggesting grinnell leave d-III.  it was said to point out that what the coach did was just not at all in the spirit of the d-III philosophy.  it was nothing more than that.

through this 'event' i hope that grinnell's staff won't think that having one guy score an outrageous number of points was a good idea.  the stunt definitely backfired and grinnell has lost lots of credibility.

Fair enough.

What I wanted to add is that in many other ways, Grinnell's team exceeds in many of the areas of D3 philosophy: student participation (number of team members), playing time for all team members, and enjoyment of the game (whether you like one particular performance or not, there is little argument that the players enjoy playing on this team).

We can debate the merits of a single performance but to do so without looking at the overall picture isn't fair. On balance (and that's key), I think an argument can be made that they are a model D3 program. Like all programs, they can still improve.

That might be a slight stretch, as one could argue that the number of bodies (fouls available) and playing time ("rotations") are simply tools to enhance the system.

Point taken, but regardless of why, there are 21 players who have seen playing time this season (admittedly one has only one game and one minute). There are plenty of D3 teams where there are say 12 players on the roster and the 10th thru 12th players haven't seen the floor yet, nor do they expect to anytime soon unless there is a blowout.

That's a level of participation that is likely unique to this program.

For that reason, Grinnell basketball likely leads the nation in letter winners. And as Martha would say, "that's a good thing". 

[jeffdc]

Scottie has made an immortal post. All hail!!!!

Scottie proclaims the Pioneers as the "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" of college basketball. 

[jeffdc]

gotta say, I'm impressed how my Karma has gone from +1 to -14 in the past week.

Must be doing something right.

[woosterbooster]

.....coming from a guy with a Karma rating of -90.  Geez, things must be rough over in Ohio. 

Someday I'll introduce you to WallyWabash.

[scottie]

Scottie has made an immortal post. All hail!!!!

Scottie proclaims the Pioneers as the "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" of college basketball. 

I have to admit that I was pretty damn proud of that one!   

[systemfan86]

gotta say, I'm impressed how my Karma has gone from +1 to -14 in the past week.

Must be doing something right.

So you want us to smite you?!

[systemfan86]

.....coming from a guy with a Karma rating of -90.  Geez, things must be rough over in Ohio. 

Someday I'll introduce you to WallyWabash.

Hey your ratio of karma to posts is still w-a-a-a-a-y better than AO's.

[AO]

.....coming from a guy with a Karma rating of -90.  Geez, things must be rough over in Ohio. 

Someday I'll introduce you to WallyWabash.

Hey your ratio of karma to posts is still w-a-a-a-a-y better than AO's.

Depends on what you consider to be "better".

[jeffdc]

Ok, now I have a goal 

.....coming from a guy with a Karma rating of -90.  Geez, things must be rough over in Ohio. 

Someday I'll introduce you to WallyWabash.

Hey your ratio of karma to posts is still w-a-a-a-a-y better than AO's.

Depends on what you consider to be "better".

[Gregory Sager]

Before I say anything, I should identify myself as someone who has no personal objection to the Grinnell system -- in fact, I'm on record as liking it on the grounds of diversity with regard to the various styles of play in the world of college basketball. But I do have a real problem with the way that Coach Arseneault has sometimes lost touch with the bigger ethical issues involved in his job (i.e., sportsmanship) when pursuing individual and team records that are meaningless outside of the realm of public relations.

Having said that ...

through this 'event' i hope that grinnell's staff won't think that having one guy score an outrageous number of points was a good idea.  the stunt definitely backfired and grinnell has lost lots of credibility.

I disagree. One aspect of the system that doesn't get mentioned much is that it brings a certain level of publicity to the school even when the Pioneers aren't setting out to deliberately break a record against an outmanned Bible school. The record-setting performance the other night got the school onto ESPN and Good Morning America, where the coverage was by no means purely, or even mostly, negative. That's a ton of national free pub for Grinnell, and garnering national attention for Grinnell College is one aspect of what David Arseneault is trying to do with that program. So, in that sense, the stunt -- and, yes, it was a stunt -- din't backfire at all. Yes, Grinnell has lost credibility with its D3 basketball peers, but: a) there are lots and lots of basketball purists who will never countenance giving the Grinnell system any credence no matter how sterling the team's sportsmanship happens to be; and b) since this is not the first time that Coach Arseneault has pulled this kind of stunt, I'm not sure how much credibility is left for Grinnell to lose, if what you mean by "credibility" is whatever portion of credit for sportsmanship and ethics a basketball team carries on its school's behalf.

That's good enough for me; I'm a fan of anyone who can get under the skin of that group of louts, for whatever reason.  But that's the school itself, it's philosophical stance.  And knowing that now, it maybe makes it more upsetting, or at least more confusing, that the basketball program would engage in what they did.  I'd expect it more out of a lesser institution.

This makes no sense. I understand that you're a political liberal and that you're thus favorably inclined towards schools whose social policies reflect your ideology, but ethics with regard to sportsmanship is a neutral construct when it comes to political ideology. Everyone, be they politically liberal, moderate, or conservative, is capable of grasping and agreeing with the idea that keeping in a starter to the very end of a huge blowout so that he could keep jacking up shots in order to break a record is an example of poor sportsmanship.

If there was an institution involved in that particular game whose ethos would've naturally precluded it from such ungracious behavior, it wasn't Grinnell ... it was Faith Baptist Bible. As an evangelical Christian school whose membership is exclusively in the National Christian College Athletic Association and whose public profile is very much that of a school primarily tailored to train church workers -- nine of the 13 majors are explicitly oriented to that purpose, and the school also contains a graduate seminary -- Faith Baptist Bible demands a high level of ethical behavior out of its students, as is to be expected from a school that represents a faith tradition that's based upon proselytizing. Players at schools such as FBBC are constantly reminded that their public role is as much that of an ambassador for their school and missionary for their faith as it is that of a basketball player whenever they wear their school's uniform.

Whether you or I or anybody else agrees with that faith tradition and that multiple-purpose persona expected of a basketball player or a basketball coach is immaterial. The fact is that it exists, and it thereby constrains players and coaches from teams such as FBBC from engaging in poor sportsmanship. Most coaches regardless of school, I would imagine, want their players to exhibit good sportsmanship, but for a team like FBBC good sportsmanship is part and parcel of their raison d'etre as an institution and as individuals. If Faith Baptist Bible ever kept in a starter to the final buzzer and deliberately changed its tactics in order to break a record in a game that'd already turned into a huge rout in its favor, it'd be just as startling as seeing a team from a Quaker school like Earlham or a Mennonite school like EMU start a brawl on the court.

just to set the record straight -- i really wasn't serious in suggesting grinnell leave d-III.  it was said to point out that what the coach did was just not at all in the spirit of the d-III philosophy.  it was nothing more than that.

through this 'event' i hope that grinnell's staff won't think that having one guy score an outrageous number of points was a good idea.  the stunt definitely backfired and grinnell has lost lots of credibility.

Fair enough.

What I wanted to add is that in many other ways, Grinnell's team exceeds in many of the areas of D3 philosophy: student participation (number of team members), playing time for all team members, and enjoyment of the game (whether you like one particular performance or not, there is little argument that the players enjoy playing on this team).

We can debate the merits of a single performance but to do so without looking at the overall picture isn't fair. On balance (and that's key), I think an argument can be made that they are a model D3 program. Like all programs, they can still improve.

That might be a slight stretch, as one could argue that the number of bodies (fouls available) and playing time ("rotations") are simply tools to enhance the system.

Point taken, but regardless of why, there are 21 players who have seen playing time this season (admittedly one has only one game and one minute). There are plenty of D3 teams where there are say 12 players on the roster and the 10th thru 12th players haven't seen the floor yet, nor do they expect to anytime soon unless there is a blowout.

That's a level of participation that is likely unique to this program.

For that reason, Grinnell basketball likely leads the nation in letter winners. And as Martha would say, "that's a good thing". 

This is true, and I don't see how someone can argue against it even if he or she doesn't like the Arseneault system or Grinnell in general. The system does create wider participation for student-athletes than does its D3 peers, and that is most certainly a positive with regard to D3's stated mission. However, I would strongly hesitate to call Grinnell men's basketball a "model D3 program", since sportsmanship is also a part of the D3 mission.