MBB: Midwest Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

And I only care because so many of you blather on about Grinnell's "unsportsmanlike" behavior. I'll defend what they do until it really IS unsportsmanlike.

In other words - never.

If you honestly can't understand how pummeling a hapless opponent for the sake of a record violates generally understood norms of sportsmanship ...

You challenged us to define sportsmanship.  While we haven't done that in specific detail (for this sort of concept, I think proscriptions are much better than giving prescriptions), I'll now give you the reverse challenge - what would Grinnell have to do to EVER have you not defend them?

[jeffp]

Careltonsid -
To answer your question about Taylor. I don't think he is a shoe in as all conference for one reason. In my very humble opinion, he needs to improve his defense to become a complete player. Jack can flat out shoot, is incredible at creating his shots, and is quick as a cat off the ball. He also has shown that he can have off nights shooting. I wonder - with the graduating class taking 42% of the scoring with it who else is gonna pick up the slack. One 1st year looks to be a GREAT shooter, but the rest of the 1st years need a lot of work...and yes, they had opportunities in both games.

[Gregory Sager]

There's actually a fascinating back-story behind that game, which is why I posted the wiki link.

A little tidbit in the Wiki piece I was unaware of: North Park has the D3 football record with a 104-32 pasting of NCC in 1968!

Oh how the roles have reversed in recent years!

Congratulations for being approximately the 3,204th person on d3boards.com to point that out, Chuck.

[jeffp]

Mr Ypsi -
Taunting. In your face tongue wagging, face making. Rubbing in what you have done. Making fun of the other team.

Dirty play. Punching, tripping, fighting. Jawing at referees (that's the fan's job). Excessive celebration.

If you play your game without the above, it's all good for me.


PS - Just listened to PBS...followed by a Des Moines TV station story that were both very complimentary...the TV story presented the real teamwork angle. Great stories.

*edit was to add the letter "L" to the word "all"; second edit was to explian the edit. Third edit was to change the non-word "explian" to the word "explain"

[jeffp]

Mr Ypsi - I'm having a bit of trouble with the term "proscription" as you use it. Are you suggesting that firm rules of sportsmanship need to be recorded and unsportsmanlike behavior prohibited? That is how I understand the word. If i'm wrong, tell me, if I'm right or close to it, tell me how you "proscribe" against setting records versus sub par teams?

[carletonsid]

Mr Ypsi -
Taunting. In your face tongue wagging, face making. Rubbing in what you have done. Making fun of the other team.

Thanks for the scout on Taylor. Interesting.

I would say that what Grinnell is doing is basically what you've described, but in a figurative sense. They're taunting the other team by saying "we're going for XXX record because we don't respect you, and even though we're up by a wide enough margin that the victory is secure, we're going to rub in the fact that we're the superior team by continuing to shoot three-pointers early in the clock and keeping out star player on the floor, getting him shots at every opportunity."

I know you don't see it that way, but it's pretty obvious from the deadspin article and comments, this board and in other places that other people do see these actions as unsportsmanlike. From my vantage point, the "look at me" factor is the hardest to digest. It's a selfish, selfish act and is degrading to the other team, and for me that has no place in Division III athletics.

[AO]

Mr Ypsi -
Taunting. In your face tongue wagging, face making. Rubbing in what you have done. Making fun of the other team.

Dirty play. Punching, tripping, fighting. Jawing at referees (that's the fan's job). Excessive celebration.

If you play your game without the above, it's al good for me.


PS - Just listened to PBS...followed by a Des Moines TV station story that were both very complimentary...the TV story presented the real teamwork angle. Great stories.

that's great that PBS liked it.  Tim Legler was just on Sportscenter saying "I have a very big problem with what Grinnell did". There is also a vote on ESPN.com that's about 50/50 amazing vs. selfish.  The positive attention isn't worth the negative.  If Grinnell keeps doing this every year the public perception isn't going to improve.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Mr Ypsi - I'm having a bit of trouble with the term "proscription" as you use it. Are you suggesting that firm rules of sportsmanship need to be recorded and unsportsmanlike behavior prohibited? That is how I understand the word. If i'm wrong, tell me, if I'm right or close to it, tell me how you "proscribe" against setting records versus sub par teams?

No.  I meant it about the way that you used it: defining sportsmanship not by saying what is IS, so much as saying what it is NOT.  And pummeling a grossly mismatched opponent is NOT sportsmanship.  (ESPECIALLY to get one individual a record which many (most?) people deride.)

As I have said several times now, if Jack Taylor can score anywhere near 100 points when Grinnell NEEDS those points, I'll tout him for 1st team All American.  Getting a boatload of points against totally over-matched opponents does NOT impress me.  (And I repeat, this is NOT to deride Jack - I've already said he is obviously very good, and he is just following Coach's orders.  My problem with the sportsmanship issue is with Arsenault, not Taylor.)

[The Roop]

Don't worry sports fans, November 30th will be here soon enough.

[Gregory Sager]

Mr Ypsi -
Taunting. In your face tongue wagging, face making. Rubbing in what you have done. Making fun of the other team.

Thanks for the scout on Taylor. Interesting.

I would say that what Grinnell is doing is basically what you've described, but in a figurative sense. They're taunting the other team by saying "we're going for XXX record because we don't respect you, and even though we're up by a wide enough margin that the victory is secure, we're going to rub in the fact that we're the superior team by continuing to shoot three-pointers early in the clock and keeping out star player on the floor, getting him shots at every opportunity."

I know you don't see it that way, but it's pretty obvious from the deadspin article and comments, this board and in other places that other people do see these actions as unsportsmanlike. From my vantage point, the "look at me" factor is the hardest to digest. It's a selfish, selfish act and is degrading to the other team, and for me that has no place in Division III athletics.

This. CarletonSID nailed it.

[jeffp]

Fair enough, careltonsid and AO. And you are right, I don't see it that way. I wish you could attend a game in person, I really do. Live perspective changes everything IMHO. First of all, you are intuiting a disrespect that just plain doesn't exist. I don't see any difference in Grinnell playing their style for 35 minutes against ANY team and St Norbert playing their style for 35 minutes against any team. This is what the team plays...what they learn. They don't play any other way. They usually slow down in close games rather than easy games in order to control the clock (I famously got in trouble years ago for expressing - on this board - my displeasure with that tactic after a loss). So, what is the difference between letting one player take 56% of the shots (stats from Crossroads game) in a blowout game and spreading that 56% around to 3 or 4 players (typical in the system) in a blowout game?

I had a very interesting chat with a former player from Faith Baptist this spring...a really nice young man. I asked about the mixed press concerning the game and received a surprising answer. To paraphrase: He would have been upset if Grinnell had NOT played to their fullest - whether one person was doing all the shooting or not. To him, pulling back would have been an act of disrespect.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I had a very interesting chat with a former player from Faith Baptist this spring...a really nice young man. I asked about the mixed press concerning the game and received a surprising answer. To paraphrase: He would have been upset if Grinnell had NOT played to their fullest - whether one person was doing all the shooting or not. To him, pulling back would have been an act of disrespect.

So, being the Washington Generals in a blatant media ploy was not an act of disrespect?  The former player you talked to still has some learning to do.

Losing to Grinnell may not be embarassing.  Losing to Grinell when they are showcasing their player who could not possibly set the all-time record except against you schlubs - that oughta be embarassing.

[Greek Tragedy]

Fair enough, careltonsid and AO. And you are right, I don't see it that way. I wish you could attend a game in person, I really do. Live perspective changes everything IMHO. First of all, you are intuiting a disrespect that just plain doesn't exist. I don't see any difference in Grinnell playing their style for 35 minutes against ANY team and St Norbert playing their style for 35 minutes against any team. This is what the team plays...what they learn. They don't play any other way. They usually slow down in close games rather than easy games in order to control the clock (I famously got in trouble years ago for expressing - on this board - my displeasure with that tactic after a loss). So, what is the difference between letting one player take 56% of the shots (stats from Crossroads game) in a blowout game and spreading that 56% around to 3 or 4 players (typical in the system) in a blowout game?

I had a very interesting chat with a former player from Faith Baptist this spring...a really nice young man. I asked about the mixed press concerning the game and received a surprising answer. To paraphrase: He would have been upset if Grinnell had NOT played to their fullest - whether one person was doing all the shooting or not. To him, pulling back would have been an act of disrespect.

That's the difference! First off, I don't mind the scoreline. Grinnell won by 50 and 45 points. Grinnell's scoring system is different than everybody else's. I've seen Grinnell blow 25-point leads because of the way they play. So, I always divide their scoreline by two. So, in reality ( ), they won by 25 and 22 points. Come on, Whitewater just won by 36! Husson just beat someone by 42.

MY point is, System ball doesn't call for ONE player to score 100 points. If Grinnell won by 50 and 3 or 4 players scored 25-30 points each, I don't think we would be having this conversation. If Coach A changed his strategy and he plays Jack Taylor every game more than everyone else and Jack Taylor scores between 60-100 points every game...because that's how The System is run, then I will buy into it NOT being unsportsmanlike.

But, The System, as I understand it, does not call for ONE player to do that and the only reason Grinnell does this is because of the opponent. That is why it's uncalled for.

[Titan Q]

Thanks for the scout on Taylor. Interesting.

I would say that what Grinnell is doing is basically what you've described, but in a figurative sense. They're taunting the other team by saying "we're going for XXX record because we don't respect you, and even though we're up by a wide enough margin that the victory is secure, we're going to rub in the fact that we're the superior team by continuing to shoot three-pointers early in the clock and keeping out star player on the floor, getting him shots at every opportunity."

I know you don't see it that way, but it's pretty obvious from the deadspin article and comments, this board and in other places that other people do see these actions as unsportsmanlike. From my vantage point, the "look at me" factor is the hardest to digest. It's a selfish, selfish act and is degrading to the other team, and for me that has no place in Division III athletics.

Very well sad.  Agree.

[AppletonRocks]

Does anyone think maybe Arsenault was trying to break the 138 point record and only took him out when it was obvious he couldn't get there?