MBB: Midwest Conference

[AppletonRocks]

Here is the box score and play by play for a game I remember well.  Lawrence absolutely destroyed the System that day, and it appears that at around 13 minutes to go, Grinnell called off the dogs and played conventionally after being down 66-36.   They did pick up a few points conventionally to lose 79-55.

Little Dave Arsenault led the GC attack with 13.

http://www2.lawrence.edu/athletics/mbasketball/stats0708/0708-10.htm

[jeffp]

Greek Tragedy -
So, many people seem to think the system is some kind of permanent...even static approach to the game. Nothing could be further from reality. Just like any other methodology it changes based on the personnel available. Do none of you remember the Clement years? Geared around ONE player who set records. Do NONE of you remember that? The teams from 2000 - 2004? Five GREAT shooters, 3 other purty dang good shooters, 2 great points, and very little size. The Jacobsen years? One tall guy. The Grotberg /Arsenault/Long /Schmidt/Chamberlain/Nordland the Younger years? Endless possibilities.

Now go back to the basic tenets of system play. Run like hell, line change every 45 seconds, full court press, no more than a few passes, shoot a trey before a layup, and so on. None of the basics have been replaced, but EACH of the basics are tweaked on a yearly if not a game by game basis. OF COURSE it morphs! If it didn't it would never be as consistently successful as it has been.

If you watched a video of the early system and concluded THAT was they way it must be run you would be sorely pressed to understand what happened in 1998/99...which was really different in execution from 2003/04...2004/05 might look more familiar...2005 through 2008 NOTHING like anything previous...2012/13 different again but back to 3 distinct lines...and now 2013/14 has yet to be established. Through all of that, the very basic tenets mentioned above don't change significantly.

I'll admit to being a little worried about this team and all the unknowns that surround it. I'm not gonna spell out my concerns for obvious reasons, and I don't think anyone is really gonna know what the system will look like -or how it will be defined this year until at least semester break.

Hope that answers...at least partially...your question.

[jeffp]

Yup AppletonRocks, sometimes the system just plain breaks down. Mighta had something to do with shooting 17.5%/24.5% from 3 pt range/total shots and it mighta had something  to do with still trying to adjust to the loss of Chamberlain 2 games earlier...but it is certainly the only time I can remember GC completely abandoning what they do. Lawrence played one heck of a game and Grinnell didn't. That's the way the ball bounces.

[AppletonRocks]

Yup AppletonRocks, sometimes the system just plain breaks down. Mighta had something to do with shooting 17.5%/24.5% from 3 pt range/total shots and it mighta had something  to do with still trying to adjust to the loss of Chamberlain 2 games earlier...but it is certainly the only time I can remember GC completely abandoning what they do. Lawrence played one heck of a game and Grinnell didn't. That's the way the ball bounces.

And that was an awesome LU team, too.  Those guys play together still and win amateur tournaments in Wisconsin against some D1 talent. 

I am off this topic, but look forward to the Circus coming to town.  Get there early if you want a good seat !!

[jeffp]

AppletonRocks -
That Lawrence team also beat Grinnell a few weeks later at home 109-106 in a real barn burner. Grinnell played MUCH better ball, but it shows how important just one person - in this case Chamberlain - can be to any team, even one that rotates in 15 - 18 players. Was that coaches last year? I can't remember.

*edit - Ahh. I see that was DePagter's 1st year.

[Titan Q]

Jeffp,

Maybe I am misunderstanding The System. Is it designed to feed one person the ball on a consistent basis? Is it a personnel problem? A few years ago it was Bobby Long, John Grotberg and Little A. Has the system then altered because of a lack of skilled players? If so, I might be able to buy into that. If the system has been altered simply because of the opponent or for the sole purpose to break records, that's where I have a problem.

Greek Tragedy -
So, many people seem to think the system is some kind of permanent...even static approach to the game. Nothing could be further from reality. Just like any other methodology it changes based on the personnel available. Do none of you remember the Clement years? Geared around ONE player who set records. Do NONE of you remember that? The teams from 2000 - 2004? Five GREAT shooters, 3 other purty dang good shooters, 2 great points, and very little size. The Jacobsen years? One tall guy. The Grotberg /Arsenault/Long /Schmidt/Chamberlain/Nordland the Younger years? Endless possibilities.

Now go back to the basic tenets of system play. Run like hell, line change every 45 seconds, full court press, no more than a few passes, shoot a trey before a layup, and so on. None of the basics have been replaced, but EACH of the basics are tweaked on a yearly if not a game by game basis. OF COURSE it morphs! If it didn't it would never be as consistently successful as it has been.

If you watched a video of the early system and concluded THAT was they way it must be run you would be sorely pressed to understand what happened in 1998/99...which was really different in execution from 2003/04...2004/05 might look more familiar...2005 through 2008 NOTHING like anything previous...2012/13 different again but back to 3 distinct lines...and now 2013/14 has yet to be established. Through all of that, the very basic tenets mentioned above don't change significantly.

I'll admit to being a little worried about this team and all the unknowns that surround it. I'm not gonna spell out my concerns for obvious reasons, and I don't think anyone is really gonna know what the system will look like -or how it will be defined this year until at least semester break.

Hope that answers...at least partially...your question.

Does The System "change based on the personnel available", or does it change on a whim when Coach Arsenault wants to break another record?

Here are some Grinnell field goal attempt numbers from last season -- the Faith Baptist game when Jack Taylor scored 138 points, and then GC's 7 MWC games before Taylor got injured:

FGA vs Faith Baptist Bible (11/20/12)
Jack Taylor: 108 (79%) - record setting 138-point performance
Rest of team: 28 (21%)

FGA @ Knox (11/28/12)
Jack Taylor: 12 (13%)
Rest of team: 81 (87%)

FGA vs Ripon (12/1/12)
Jack Taylor: 19 (21%)
Rest of team: 72 (79%)

FGA @Monmouth (12/4/12)
Jack Taylor: 12 (15%)
Rest of team: 66 (85%)

FGA @ St. Norbert (12/8/12)
Jack Taylor: 18 (29%)
Rest of team: 44 (71%)

FGA vs Illinois College (12/11/12)
Jack Taylor: 26 (31%)
Rest of team: 59 (69%)

FGA vs Beloit (1/2/13)
Jack Taylor: 20 (23%)
Rest of team: 68 (77%)

FGA @ Carroll (1/5/13)
Jack Taylor: 41 (47%)
Rest of team: 47 (53%)


Grinnell had the same personnel for the Faith Baptist game last year as it did for those MWC games that followed -- yet the Pioneers distributed their FGA in an extremely different fashion.  I doubt The System needed to be "tweaked" from an X's and O's standpoint to beat Faith Baptist...and I doubt it needed to be "tweaked" on November 17, 2013 for Crossroads. 

Dave Arsenault really only changes The System when he wants to set individuals records, right?

[AppletonRocks]

AppletonRocks -
That Lawrence team also beat Grinnell a few weeks later at home 109-106 in a real barn burner. Grinnell played MUCH better ball, but it shows how important just one person - in this case Chamberlain - can be to any team, even one that rotates in 15 - 18 players. Was that coaches last year? I can't remember.

*edit - Ahh. I see that was DePagter's 1st year.

Yes, Tharp was at Hillsdale by then.  LU won MWC in 2008 and 2009. 

[jeffp]

Titan Q -
Blah blah blah... blahblahhhh blah blah.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Titan Q -
Blah blah blah... blahblahhhh blah blah.

I guess this was a lot easier than attempting to answer a straightforward question.

[AndOne]

Titan Q -
Blah blah blah... blahblahhhh blah blah.

I guess this was a lot easier than attempting to answer a straightforward question.

Coming from jeffp, I thought that WAS a question, Mr. 

[jeffp]

Awww, you know I really love all you guys, but if you think that was a legitimate question from Q then I'll give a legitimate answer.
That answer is NO.

Rumor has is that Grinnell will attempt to add to an almost 20 year long record: Continuous Undie Bunching amongst the elite posters of D3hoops.com.
What's the over/under on THAT?


Blah blah blah really WAS the correct answer, btw.

[frodotwo]

Add some major college basketball media members to the list of those who think this act is wrong.

CSB National College

Great article.

Wonderful article. It brings to light the way this game was played. Some excerpts:

Grinnell pressed from the opening tap, and Arseneault stationed Taylor atop the press to defend the inbounds play and double-team the recipient of the entry pass. Once the ball passed the free throw line Taylor stopped defending, crossing the midcourt stripe only once during a 11-minute stretch on Sunday -- and as soon as he realized where he was, he stopped. At that moment Crossroads had a two-on-one fast break; Taylor was the one. When he stopped, it was two on none.

Playing the "System" or cherry picking?

On offense Taylor kept shooting until he scored or Crossroads got the defensive rebound. Taylor scored 49 consecutive Grinnell points in one stretch -- I watched video of the game Monday -- taking three shots on several possessions, including one where teammate Cody Olson grabbed an offensive rebound of Taylor's miss and saw nobody between himself and the rim, eight feet away. Olson looked like he might have no choice but to shoot until he saw Taylor cut to the basket. Crisis averted, Olson passed to Taylor for the layup.

Getting your entire team involved in the game right?

As for Arseneault, I can tell you this: He feels no shame at all. Word for word, I asked him this on Monday:

At what point do you feel embarrassed about what you're doing to overmatched teams?

"At what point do I ..." David N. Arseneault's voice trailed off. "I'm not sure I understand your question."

Clearly.

I had little respect for how this team played this game before (and the coach), I have none now. How anyone can defend how this game was played is beyond me.

[The Roop]

At the half. Dominican 30 Beloit 28. I think 29 of Dominicans points came on free throws. Lazarcik went to the bench early with two quick dumb fouls. You can't score from there young man, gotta knock that stuff off.

[The Roop]

Dominican hits 75 foot 3 pointer at the buzzer, fortunately Beloit was up by 5 at the time. Americas Team 71 Dominican 69. Not that there was any "home cooking" involved but seemingly every time Beloit had a double digit lead the whistle blew.

[systemfan86]

Grinnell had the same personnel for the Faith Baptist game last year as it did for those MWC games that followed -- yet the Pioneers distributed their FGA in an extremely different fashion.  I doubt The System needed to be "tweaked" from an X's and O's standpoint to beat Faith Baptist...and I doubt it needed to be "tweaked" on November 17, 2013 for Crossroads. 

Dave Arsenault really only changes The System when he wants to set individuals records, right?

Listen, Grinnell has and will play for records. They've said as much. I don't care for it. Lots of people who have access to public media and only pay attention to D3 games when unusual things happen clearly don't like it. Those opinions don't seem to impact the people making the decision to go for the records. Nor do any of us have a true feel for the team's perspective on these attempts. 

But to say that they only change it to set individual records is too broad a charge. The point that jeffp was making is that personnel does drive the version of the system played. When they have a player who is a superior shooter (like Taylor), they adapt to get that player more looks. You can go back through the years and find games where names like Clement and Wood  took a high volume of the team attempts. It was what the situation called for and was more 'organic'. I don't hear most people complaining about those games.

Let restrict our consternation to the games where the goal is (1) win the game and (1a) break a record. Painting with a broad brush is too messy