MBB: Midwest Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

Yeah, that's really not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison...

I'll allow the clarification that the issue has more to do with records than opponents, but IF the issue is opponents and margin of victory, then you are right that it not even close to an apples to apples in the sense that Grinnell is much closer competitively to Crossroads Baptist than Michigan is to Houston Baptist.

Grinnell is not the defending NCAA tournament runner up.

To clarify more precisely, it is singling out pathetic opponents to try for individual records in what is supposedly a team game (especially since one of the features of The System Grinnell brags most about is involving everyone).

BTW, citing enrollments is utterly irrelevant.  In high school, enrollment size matters.  In college, they are all recruited.  In theory, a college with 8 students could win the national tourney if the coach recruited the right 8!

[scottie]

I bet Houston Baptist has their own washing machines and got more than $1200 to play the Wolverines.   

But seriously.....If a team finishes 17-5, BUT wins their last 16 in a row, could they STILL get into the Tournament???   

Congrats to the Skrivseth Frosh/Sophs! 

[systemfan86]

As a reference to the problem some Grinnell fans have with the charges of unsportsmanlike play, margin of victory, and quality of opponent, I give you a score that just ran across the bottom of ESPN

#21 Michigan 107, Houston Baptist 53

HBU has 2500 students - the size of Carroll University - so we don't have schools of similar stature.
Doubt anyone will get upset by this game. So the vitriol for Grinnell seems odd to us.

Just sayin.

Yeah, that's really not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison...

I'll allow the clarification that the issue has more to do with records than opponents, but IF the issue is opponents and margin of victory, then you are right that it not even close to an apples to apples in the sense that Grinnell is much closer competitively to Crossroads Baptist than Michigan is to Houston Baptist.

Grinnell is not the defending NCAA tournament runner up.

To clarify more precisely, it is singling out pathetic opponents to try for individual records in what is supposedly a team game (especially since one of the features of The System Grinnell brags most about is involving everyone).

BTW, citing enrollments is utterly irrelevant.  In high school, enrollment size matters.  In college, they are all recruited.  In theory, a college with 8 students could win the national tourney if the coach recruited the right 8!

Fair enough. That's true in theory, but not in practice. Larger schools have facilities and TV contracts that attract top players more than small schools. You aren't making the point that HBU IS competitive with Michigan are you?

Grinnell may have better facilities to attract basketball players than Crossroads, but the difference is not as drastic as Michigan and HBU. :-)

And to take this full circle, the biggest advantage Grinnell has in attracting basketball players is the national publicity is gets on occasion. Not necessarily pretty, but true.

[Mr. Ypsi]

As a disgruntled Michigan fan, I'd say EVERY team is competitive with them!

But no, I'm not seriously contending that Houston Baptist is competitive with UM.  Don't know why they are on the schedule, but every major team schedules SOME cupcakes.  But, unlike Grinnell, we didn't take the opportunity to try to get an individual a record (nor did we go for a team record, since the subs came early and often).

[Gregory Sager]

Gregory, you lost me there. In the first part of your statement you say, "The purpose is to get System MARGINS to compare to the margins typical of normal basketball." You close your paragraph with, " It's an informal way of comparing FINAL SCORES across widely disparate forms of basketball." If it is the latter, maybe it helps sorta kinda (I guess?) but if it is the margin you are trying to compare it still seems to be an unnecessary statistical contrivance based on the actual margin point differentials between St Norbert and Grinnell last year. I'm not gonna do the leg work (watching the unbelievably torrid pace of both 5th grade and 7th grade hoops has worn me out today  ), but I wonder if the margin PERCENTAGE in comparison to other games might actually be lower in System ball.  Any takers?

It's an interesting thought, but checking it out would be volunteering to do too much math for my tastes.  Let's dump this on KnightSlappy, who was an engineering major at Calvin and crunches D3 basketball statistical minutiae the way that goats eat tin cans.

[scottie]

As someone who may or may not have seen Michigan play and lose on Tuesday evening in person, I'd say they were probably happy to earn a few style points against HouBab.  But enough about DI.  How 'bout them Baby Scots??   

[jeffp]

Holy Smokes! I just read the story and play by and see that St Norbert shot 20 - yes TWENTY free throws in the 5 minute overtime and made 16. I guess what I said earlier was a bit of an understatement.

[jeffp]

Yup Scottie! The Freshsophs can bring it - they decided to bring it at the right time. Congrats! Mr The Roop, America's Team may just need to taste a win. Whatever, the Feb 8 game will still be a fine time.

[The Roop]

Gregory, you lost me there. In the first part of your statement you say, "The purpose is to get System MARGINS to compare to the margins typical of normal basketball." You close your paragraph with, " It's an informal way of comparing FINAL SCORES across widely disparate forms of basketball." If it is the latter, maybe it helps sorta kinda (I guess?) but if it is the margin you are trying to compare it still seems to be an unnecessary statistical contrivance based on the actual margin point differentials between St Norbert and Grinnell last year. I'm not gonna do the leg work (watching the unbelievably torrid pace of both 5th grade and 7th grade hoops has worn me out today  ), but I wonder if the margin PERCENTAGE in comparison to other games might actually be lower in System ball.  Any takers?

I'm not trying to be a smarta** (for once); I do realize that several of you are making a serious attempt to understand how system ball affects end results, and I'm not trying to denigrate your efforts, especially since - as Gregory points out, those attempts (no matter how serious) are quite informal.

Our dog Bella was watching the Americas Team vs. The Good Guys game in the computer room with us yesterday. She's an Australian Kelpie so if Luke Longley isn't playing she doesn't really care who wins, so I thought she would be a good independent observer. After I explained the difference to her between empty possessions in a conventional game vs. empty possessions in a System game. I let her read my new books.

Through a combination of barks, woofs, paws and knocking things over with her tail; the exact formula is proprietary. She communicated to me that the System inflates the statistics by 18.4%. +/- .034% depending on humidity and elevation above sea level at the venue. Global warming however does not seem to be a factor.

[jeffp]

Or maybe...(points/possessions) x 100 ?!?? That's NOT proprietary, I just read it online.

[AppletonRocks]

As a disgruntled Michigan fan, I'd say EVERY team is competitive with them!

But no, I'm not seriously contending that Houston Baptist is competitive with UM.  Don't know why they are on the schedule, but every major team schedules SOME cupcakes.  But, unlike Grinnell, we didn't take the opportunity to try to get an individual a record (nor did we go for a team record, since the subs came early and often).

Well said.  Feel sorry for you, Michigan fan.  The ISU Cyclones really exposed you, badly, a few weeks ago.  Template for Ohio State and Wisconsin and Iowa to use.

[OBC]

There's been continuing talk on the board vis a vis Grinnell, but not much really about a terrific game with St. Norbert last Saturday. Taking a nationally ranked opponent to overtime before falling just short proves, in my mind, that the Pioneers are a legitimate contender in the MWC. If not for the outright title, then certainly in a one game, anything can happen, MWC tournament.

The game was a wonderful college basketball game from a fan's perspective. Runs by both teams early, cold GC shooting at the end leaving the door open, and disciplined hard nosed basketball by St. Norbert. AND a full 5 minute overtime just in case you didn't get your fill in the first 40.

I'm impressed with St. Norbert. They are very well coached. They are very quick, and they shoot well from every position. Saturday, it looked like everyone on the team was a 90% free throw shooter, whereas the Pios left a number of points unearned from the charity stripe. Critical to the Knights win was coach Grzesk's decision to allow Cerroni (#11) to shoot the open 3 every time he had the look. Most coaches are afraid of this strategy, but it won the game for St. Norbert. Cerroni was so wide open so many times, and his stroke so pure that it was remarkable that Grinnell didn't shade the zone his way. He flat out killed them.

Jack Taylor dropped 40 on the day, against one of the traditionally best defensive teams in the conference. He did so against a very physical defense, as well. Twice, he took elbows to the face, one causing him to miss 2 shifts. And he was tripped and grabbed as he blew by his man out front only to do face plants in the lane. Grinnell often gets called for touch fouls around the basket resulting in 3 point plays. One of my criticisms is that the Pioneers often don't foul hard enough.

When I first saw Julian Marx play, I thought it would be a successful season for him if he could keep his shorts from falling off for 24 games. But the kid has won me over. He can flat out shoot, and he has ice water in his veins, hitting critical late shots to keep GC in the game. Maher and Yeager are nice balanced players who can do alot.

Note to all 3 point shooters, boys, step up to the arc line when you're uncovered. It's a better shot than the 22 footer.

Grinnell will have to improve on the boards. St Norbert got too many second and third chances. Stronger hands, make yourselves wide.

Should be a fun season for the Darby faithful.

 

[jeffp]

Thanks OBC. Hoping we could get a good look at the game from someone.  As usual, the in-person observer has the best vantage point. Totally agree about Marx. Oh please, please let him (and everyone else for that matter) stay healthy.

(And SHhhhhh! You're giving away the secret I mentioned on how to beat Grinnell!  )

[AppletonRocks]

There's been continuing talk on the board vis a vis Grinnell, but not much really about a terrific game with St. Norbert last Saturday. Taking a nationally ranked opponent to overtime before falling just short proves, in my mind, that the Pioneers are a legitimate contender in the MWC. If not for the outright title, then certainly in a one game, anything can happen, MWC tournament.

The game was a wonderful college basketball game from a fan's perspective. Runs by both teams early, cold GC shooting at the end leaving the door open, and disciplined hard nosed basketball by St. Norbert. AND a full 5 minute overtime just in case you didn't get your fill in the first 40.

I'm impressed with St. Norbert. They are very well coached. They are very quick, and they shoot well from every position. Saturday, it looked like everyone on the team was a 90% free throw shooter, whereas the Pios left a number of points unearned from the charity stripe. Critical to the Knights win was coach Grzesk's decision to allow Cerroni (#11) to shoot the open 3 every time he had the look. Most coaches are afraid of this strategy, but it won the game for St. Norbert. Cerroni was so wide open so many times, and his stroke so pure that it was remarkable that Grinnell didn't shade the zone his way. He flat out killed them.

Jack Taylor dropped 40 on the day, against one of the traditionally best defensive teams in the conference. He did so against a very physical defense, as well. Twice, he took elbows to the face, one causing him to miss 2 shifts. And he was tripped and grabbed as he blew by his man out front only to do face plants in the lane. Grinnell often gets called for touch fouls around the basket resulting in 3 point plays. One of my criticisms is that the Pioneers often don't foul hard enough.

When I first saw Julian Marx play, I thought it would be a successful season for him if he could keep his shorts from falling off for 24 games. But the kid has won me over. He can flat out shoot, and he has ice water in his veins, hitting critical late shots to keep GC in the game. Maher and Yeager are nice balanced players who can do alot.

Note to all 3 point shooters, boys, step up to the arc line when you're uncovered. It's a better shot than the 22 footer.

Grinnell will have to improve on the boards. St Norbert got too many second and third chances. Stronger hands, make yourselves wide.

Should be a fun season for the Darby faithful.

Cerroni is a D-1 transfer from UW-Green Bay, and he played there too.  Gresz was playing with  house money.   

[scottie]

Bears demolish the Cowboys.....not a good week for EITHER of America's Teams.