MBB: Midwest Conference

[RFMichigan]

(I posted this in the NACC basketball board, but I'm also adding it here.)

I'm not sure how good the Midwest Conference is in basketball from top to bottom, but the NACC is adding a school that has won their league eight times out of the last 10 and over the same time period has won at least half of their conference's football championships, plus 9 out of the last 10 seasons have finished either first or second in their division in baseball. (Sorry - these are all men's sports.) This is a MAJOR deal for men's sports in the NACC. If I'm a coach in almost any men's sport in the NACC I'm not sure I'm all that excited to see St. Norbert added to the conference, especially if I'm at a program that has a legitimate chance to win the conference in basketball or football from year to year. St. Norbert will now be a major hurdle in getting to the NCAA tournaments.

From an outsider's viewpoint and from St. Norbert's perspective, I guess I can see the reasoning for entering the NACC. Although it may seem to be a lateral move strictly as far as athletic competition, as someone said in another post the travel isn't as long as some of the trips they take in the Midwest Conference and it might get you into the Chicago and Milwaukee markets more readily. I'd love to hear some other thoughts from other posters "in the know".

[judgetrainer]

I have to agree that Monmouth has done its part for strength of conference the last, oh, two decades or more.

This is a loss for the conference. SNC was the largest (not counting Chicago) student body. They have exceptional facilities (yes, I know, Ripon just spent a ton). I think there will be some non-conference games in the future. I see LU, Ripon, and SNC in basketball as obvious choices for that.

SNC can at least keep pummeling Lawrence in hockey...

[GK79]

And now, my personal reaction.

This sucks.

I get it. No more drives to Monmouth, Knox, IC, Cornell, or Grinnell. Getting more Milwaukee and Chicago schools, which is where the school recruits all students from.

But I don't like losing the rivalries with Lawrence and Ripon. At the risk of offending the new competition, it seems like a step down. Maybe I'm wrong - I can't say I follow the NACC at all in terms of how it does in the postseason. But I don't get the sense at-large bids are ever an option (not that they are common for the MWC).

First time poster here.  Joined specifically to weigh in on this issue.

I just have to wonder if there is more to this than we are being told. 

First of all,  how bad can the travel be?  For basketball, I sorta of get it.  Both teams travel to all the MWC Iowa and western Illinois schools at least once per season, more if the post season tournament is there and if the Green Knights are in that tournament.  But, SNC
baseball, for example, doesn't have a single game scheduled at any of the Iowa or western Illinois MWC schools this year.  And golf?  Well, the golf teams really don't play a conference schedule at all.  They have a conference tournament at the end of the season.  Yet, the mens golf team voluntarily scheduled themselves to play at tournaments at Knox and Wartburg this year.  Why, if travel to those areas for scheduled conference contests is so hard on the student athletes?  If travel is such a concern, why did the men's tennis team voluntarily schedule a match against Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI this year?  For football, Eureka College in Central Illinois will be a five hour hike by the Green Knights for a regular season game every other year.  And, what about the crossover matches that the NACC and MIAA have each year in football?  Will those continue?  If so, some of those schools are further away from SNC than the furthest MWC school.

Secondly, why invest millions in a new pool and additional operating resources in a mens and womens swimming program only to join a conference that does not offer a swimming championship?  And then petition to remain as an affiliate member for swimming in the very same conference that you left because of travel concerns?

So, again, is there a story behind the story here?

[WW]

And now, my personal reaction.

This sucks.

I get it. No more drives to Monmouth, Knox, IC, Cornell, or Grinnell. Getting more Milwaukee and Chicago schools, which is where the school recruits all students from.

But I don't like losing the rivalries with Lawrence and Ripon. At the risk of offending the new competition, it seems like a step down. Maybe I'm wrong - I can't say I follow the NACC at all in terms of how it does in the postseason. But I don't get the sense at-large bids are ever an option (not that they are common for the MWC).

First time poster here.  Joined specifically to weigh in on this issue.

I just have to wonder if there is more to this than we are being told. 

First of all,  how bad can the travel be?  For basketball, I sorta of get it.  Both teams travel to all the MWC Iowa and western Illinois schools at least once per season, more if the post season tournament is there and if the Green Knights are in that tournament.  But, SNC
baseball, for example, doesn't have a single game scheduled at any of the Iowa or western Illinois MWC schools this year.  And golf?  Well, the golf teams really don't play a conference schedule at all.  They have a conference tournament at the end of the season.  Yet, the mens golf team voluntarily scheduled themselves to play at tournaments at Knox and Wartburg this year.  Why, if travel to those areas for scheduled conference contests is so hard on the student athletes?  If travel is such a concern, why did the men's tennis team voluntarily schedule a match against Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI this year?  For football, Eureka College in Central Illinois will be a five hour hike by the Green Knights for a regular season game every other year.  And, what about the crossover matches that the NACC and MIAA have each year in football?  Will those continue?  If so, some of those schools are further away from SNC than the furthest MWC school.

Secondly, why invest millions in a new pool and additional operating resources in a mens and womens swimming program only to join a conference that does not offer a swimming championship?  And then petition to remain as an affiliate member for swimming in the very same conference that you left because of travel concerns?

So, again, is there a story behind the story here?

I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but I don't think there's anything to see here. It does reduce net travel, and significantly, overnights. As for football, those may still happen with Eureka every other year. But you have one of those minimally every year now, often two, and sometimes three. As for the NACC-MIAA thing, I don't see it continuing now that there will likely be 8 conference games.

As for the pool, I don't see the significance of the swim program having to join a league that has swimming. I think it's awesome that SNC has started it up. Big picture, so what if the league doesn't support it? Find one that does. Lots of leagues have specific-sport-only members (MWC football, for example).

NACC has wrestling members too. How bout it, SNC?

[Gregory Sager]

If St. Norbert didn't want to return cap in hand to the MWC to petition to join as an affiliate for both men's and women's swimming & diviing, it could always petition the CCIW to join as an associate member in those sports. There's no baggage involved for either SNC or the CCIW in doing that, and the travel's certainly no worse. The CCIW currently has seven teams apiece in men's and women's swimming & diving (the nine full members of the league sans Elmhurst and North Park), so it's not as though the CCIW is overloaded or anything.

[WUPHF]

One question I had was whether or not the St. Norbert administration was looking around and thinking about the admissions environments and the continued decline in the Midwest and elsewhere and thinking wow, we have to get in to whatever conference is best for the long term.

Both conferences have institutions that seemed poised to weather the storm and institutions that seem poised to struggle (there are a few that are already struggling).

Its not obvious that one conference is better than the other though in this regard.

[GK79]

I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but I don't think there's anything to see here. It does reduce net travel, and significantly, overnights. As for football, those may still happen with Eureka every other year. But you have one of those minimally every year now, often two, and sometimes three. As for the NACC-MIAA thing, I don't see it continuing now that there will likely be 8 conference games.

If in-conference travel length is such a concern, why do SNC athletics schedule NC contests in relatively distant locations like Wartburg, Gustavus Adolphus, Calvin, Millikin, and Rose-Hulman?  Why not stay in the MWC,  get rid of those distant NC contests, and schedule closer NC contests?  That would reduce net travel without having to change conferences.  And, how much of a reduction in net travel are we talking about?  50%, 30%, less than 30%? 

I just can't imagine how the net reduction is substantial enough to warrant a change, especially since the only SNC teams that are travelling every year to all five relatively distant MWC locations are mens and womens basketball.  All the other teams either don't go there at all, or they go to two or three of them.

[GK79]

One question I had was whether or not the St. Norbert administration was looking around and thinking about the admissions environments and the continued decline in the Midwest and elsewhere and thinking wow, we have to get in to whatever conference is best for the long term.

Both conferences have institutions that seemed poised to weather the storm and institutions that seem poised to struggle (there are a few that are already struggling).

Its not obvious that one conference is better than the other though in this regard.

Interesting point.  SNC is pretty much top dog by far in the MWC from an enrollment perspective.  There would be several larger schools than SNC in the NACC.

[Ryan Stoppable]

If St. Norbert didn't want to return cap in hand to the MWC to petition to join as an affiliate for both men's and women's swimming & diviing, it could always petition the CCIW to join as an associate member in those sports. There's no baggage involved for either SNC or the CCIW in doing that, and the travel's certainly no worse. The CCIW currently has seven teams apiece in men's and women's swimming & diving (the nine full members of the league sans Elmhurst and North Park), so it's not as though the CCIW is overloaded or anything.

There would also be some precedent there, as the three NACC members that sponsor men's wrestling (Lakeland, Concordia Wisconsin and MSOE) compete in the CCIW for that sport.

[Gregory Sager]

I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but I don't think there's anything to see here. It does reduce net travel, and significantly, overnights. As for football, those may still happen with Eureka every other year. But you have one of those minimally every year now, often two, and sometimes three. As for the NACC-MIAA thing, I don't see it continuing now that there will likely be 8 conference games.

If in-conference travel length is such a concern, why do SNC athletics schedule NC contests in relatively distant locations like Wartburg, Gustavus Adolphus, Calvin, Millikin, and Rose-Hulman?  Why not stay in the MWC,  get rid of those distant NC contests, and schedule closer NC contests?  That would reduce net travel without having to change conferences.  And, how much of a reduction in net travel are we talking about?  50%, 30%, less than 30%? 

You're assuming that SNC can simply schedule desired opponents at will. But it doesn't work that way. Scheduling is subject to such variables as the open dates available for the opponent being sought, and whether or not said opponent is actually willing to play your team. Given SNC's stature in most sports as a big fish in a small pond with regard to the competitive ability of the Knights vis-a-vis the MWC, there may be certain teams that would be eager to play them and certain teams that might shy away from playing them. Personalities and relationships between coaches enter into this as well.

SNC is not in an ideal position with regard to geography. There are fewer D3 schools in the northwesternmost corner of the main D3 map (I'm not counting the NWC as "northwesternmost", since it's a distant island conference) than there are in the lower midwest or out east. Moreover, SNC has Lake Michigan at its back and no easy way to get around it (which makes travel to and from MIAA schools difficult), nothing at all to its north except for Finlandia, and a relatively limited menu of potential opponents to the west (Lawrence, the MIAC schools, some of the UMAC schools, and about a third of the WIAC schools). That leaves points south, and the largest cluster of schools to the south belongs to -- you guessed it -- the NACC.

I just can't imagine how the net reduction is substantial enough to warrant a change, especially since the only SNC teams that are travelling every year to all five relatively distant MWC locations are mens and womens basketball.  All the other teams either don't go there at all, or they go to two or three of them.

I don't think that SNC would've signed off on such a dramatic change if this was the sort of it-ain't-broke-why-fix-it situation that you're suggesting it is. There is something substantial being lost in this move by SNC -- the academic prestige of the MWC, which SNC is exchanging for identification with a rather plebeian collection of institutions in the NACC -- so I doubt that this decision was made without a lot of study and a considerable amount of calculating mileage and costs in consultation with the annual master schedule of Green Knights sports.

If St. Norbert didn't want to return cap in hand to the MWC to petition to join as an affiliate for both men's and women's swimming & diviing, it could always petition the CCIW to join as an associate member in those sports. There's no baggage involved for either SNC or the CCIW in doing that, and the travel's certainly no worse. The CCIW currently has seven teams apiece in men's and women's swimming & diving (the nine full members of the league sans Elmhurst and North Park), so it's not as though the CCIW is overloaded or anything.

There would also be some precedent there, as the three NACC members that sponsor men's wrestling (Lakeland, Concordia Wisconsin and MSOE) compete in the CCIW for that sport.

Yep. The CCIW is very liberal about accepting associate-member applications. Wash U is an associate member for football, Dubuque is an associate member for men's lacrosse, Chicago is an associate member for women's lacrosse, etc. Next year two institutions that are brand-new to CCIW competition, Loras and Greenville, will be joining as associate members in men's volleyball, which the CCIW will sponsor for the first time in 2019-20.

The league adds associate members mostly for the purpose of getting to the magic number of teams needed for D3 automatic tournament bids, which is seven, and the CCIW already has seven members for both men's swimming & diving and women's swimming & diving. But a little insurance wouldn't hurt, especially since it's more likely that a CCIW school would drop swimming than that Elmhurst or North Park would add it.

[Pat Coleman]

My understanding of this has always been that St. Norbert doesn't like the restrictions placed upon it as members of the Midwest Conference. It tried to get into a conference where it would lose those restrictions and also level up when overtures were apparently made with the CCIW. Failing to get into that league, I guess St. Norbert valued leaving the restriction zone over making a clear jump up in quality.

[WW]

My understanding of this has always been that St. Norbert doesn't like the restrictions placed upon it as members of the Midwest Conference. It tried to get into a conference where it would lose those restrictions and also level up when overtures were apparently made with the CCIW. Failing to get into that league, I guess St. Norbert valued leaving the restriction zone over making a clear jump up in quality.

What kind of "restrictions"?

I wonder what they learned from Carroll's experience leaving the MWC for CCIW. You'll get a wide range of opinion there on whether or not it was good for Pioneer athletics, and the university as a whole.

[GK79]

You're assuming that SNC can simply schedule desired opponents at will. But it doesn't work that way. Scheduling is subject to such variables as the open dates available for the opponent being sought, and whether or not said opponent is actually willing to play your team. Given SNC's stature in most sports as a big fish in a small pond with regard to the competitive ability of the Knights vis-a-vis the MWC, there may be certain teams that would be eager to play them and certain teams that might shy away from playing them. Personalities and relationships between coaches enter into this as well.

SNC is not in an ideal position with regard to geography.

I'm really not assuming that at all.  I know it isn't easy.  All I am asking is if schools like Wartburg, Rose-Hulman and Calvin were the closest opponents they could find for open dates for NC contests. 

Their geography is not all that bad.  They are in a state served by five D3 conferences.  If conference travel is a problem, why travel to states that aren't even contiguous for non conference games?

[Gregory Sager]

I've already answered that question. Open dates aren't necessarily easy to fill. You're mistaken in thinking that St. Norbert's geography is not a problem. There are only sixteen D3 schools within three hours' drive of SNC. Four of them are MWC schools, and six are NACC schools. That is not a broad palette from which to create a non-conference schedule that will get an SNC student back in his or her bed on a weeknight and guarantee that he or she will have enough sleep before classes the next morning.

You're also forgetting that part of what a coach tries to do, if his team has any aspirations at all of reaching the postseason, is to schedule strategically. SNC head men's basketball coach Gary Grzesk is very good at this. He knows that his team is typically good enough to dominate what is not a very good league by D3 standards. So he schedules strong non-conference teams in order to prepare them for the possibility of what they might see in the post-season. Hence, the strong WIAC teams that appear on the SNC schedule every year. But, more than that, he looks for programs like his, programs that are always strong but play in what have historically been weaker leagues. Hence, he schedules teams such as Wartburg, Calvin, and Rose-Hulman, good but beatable teams who are almost always guaranteed to finish with solid W-L records that will enhance the strength of schedule of the Green Knights and improve their chances for a Pool C berth and/or their postseason seeding.

Last season he had the Green Knights play Northwestern and Benedictine, two more classic examples of good but beatable teams that in a typical season will end the year with good records because of the lesser strength of their leagues.

[gbpuckfan]

My understanding of this has always been that St. Norbert doesn't like the restrictions placed upon it as members of the Midwest Conference. It tried to get into a conference where it would lose those restrictions and also level up when overtures were apparently made with the CCIW. Failing to get into that league, I guess St. Norbert valued leaving the restriction zone over making a clear jump up in quality.

What kind of "restrictions"?

I wonder what they learned from Carroll's experience leaving the MWC for CCIW. You'll get a wide range of opinion there on whether or not it was good for Pioneer athletics, and the university as a whole.

I'm sure someone more familiar with this than I can answer better, but I believe the MWC doesn't allow, for example, basketball teams to play as many games as the NCAA allows. And, there are conference recruiting restrictions which are more stringent than the NCAA. But again, that may not be 100% accurate.