MBB: Midwest Conference

[systemfan86]

"Dolph Stanley-
I have to admit the same thought "the Roop" had crossed my mind as well. I hope it isn't so, but at least you have to admire him for addressing what he perceives in your posts over the last few years"

Jeff,

While I don't expect much from Roop in the way of logic or reasoning, I would expect more of you.  My arguments have been based soley on two FACTS that would be hard to argue with:

1)  Beloit basketball, once one of the premier programs in the MWC has become a perenial also ran in the past nine seasons

2)  While other schools of equal or higher educational standard manage to recruit full rosters (or in the case of that school in Iowa, two full rosters) Beloit has struggled to field 10-11 players on a regular basis and has had to rely on football players and students who happened to show up at school to complete a roster.

I blame the coach.  It doesn't matter what color he is, how tall he is, or even that he is a he (maybe Beloit should take that route, think of the publicity for hiring a woman for a mens D3 program).  If you or anyone else can produce one statement that would even seem to indicate that my reaction is based on race I will never post on this board again.  If not then we can agree to disagree about the coaches abilities but I resent the McCarthyism tactic of attempting to label me a racist rather than dealing with the facts.

Knowing full well, that it would probably better to let this one alone...

I don't know why the racist charge was made - I don't know the background between the posters - but, hey, you better be damn sure of your position before throwing out an accusation like that. It's incredibly personal and incredibly damning. It is also a show stopper in terms of sincere discussion. With that 'gorilla' sitting in the middle we can't address legitimate issues regarding the coach's performance.

I thought we (collectively) had moved a little away from the race issues with coaches, but I guess it was just wishful thinking on my part. Can anyone tell me how many of the 12 coaches in the NFL payoffs were minorities? I'd have to think very hard to come up with the number because their skin tone isn't an issue I consider. I live in a city with one, and I can honestly say the amount of melanin in his skin is undiscussed. Why? Probably because he took a team that sucked for 15 years and took them to the playoffs. I'm guessing all coaches would prefer to be judged by their performance than by their appearance.

With that...Coach Youngblood's career record (according the MWC press release) is 63-131. That's below .333 for his career. That's not good. Conger of LF and Worrell of IC came in a year ahead of Youngblood and their records are 105-116 and 97-124. Both have losing records but one is nearly .500 and the other is nearly .444. We need to be able to talk about that without discussing their appearance.  

Just my two cents...

[systemfan86]

At the risk of sounding like I'm advocating - which I'm not, since I don't have a dog in this fight - here's another stat:

Since Youngblood has been at Beloit, they are the only team that hasn't made the conference tournament.

In order of appearances:
   Ripon - 7 times
   Lawrence - 5 times
   Lake Forest - 5 times
   Grinnell - 4 times
   Illinois College - 4 times
   Carroll - 2 times
   St. Norberts - 2 times
   Monmouth - 2 times
   Knox - once

[Dolph Stanley]

"so Dolph, I guess BC should just fire every coach and start fresh.....the whole bunch of can't recruit worth a damn."

Womens Volleyball 13 players top four finish in conference
Mens Cross Country 13 runners fourth in conference
Womens Cross Country 18 runners 3rd in conference
Mens Soccer 22 players missed top four after five straight appearances
Womens Soccer 24 players fifth in conference
Womens Tennis - only nine players, missed top four after multiple appearances.
Womens Softball 15 players top four in conference
Mens Baseball - 30 players

Oh don't you just hate it when those darn facts start getting in the way?

[Dolph Stanley]

"If you look at who is the head of LU's addmissions, that person came from Beloit...back when BC could get players they wanted."

The head of admissions at LU is named Steven Syverson.  I do not believe he has ever had any connection with Beloit College.  Perhaps you can prove me wrong?

If you are speaking of one of the people in their admission office who use to be connected to Beloit, she has no responsability for recruiting Wisconsin where 16 of the 22 players on their roster are from.

A bit of a reach don't you thinK?

[Dolph Stanley]

Thank you Systemfan

[scottie]

I also do not have a "dog in this fight," but I'll throw this in and let you decide if it means anything regarding this conversation...

Midwest Conference All-Sport Standings (for Beloit):
'05-'06 Men 5th, Women 4th (currently)
'04-'05 Men 6th, Women 6th
'03-'04 Men 6th, Women T4th
'02-'03 Men 5th, Women 8th

[hjmphelp]

Alot has happened since the first volleys here, and i couldn't respond before now because we finally have students back and are busy (thank God!) but here goes:

Look, I remember what Iowa fans did to George Raveling 20 years ago. It wasn't pretty and it also wasn't overt. It was certainly present, though and some of your statements sounded quite familiar/similar to that situation. What I said (it's quoted twice by you folks) is that the same thought had crossed my mind. What I didn't say (and should have) is that those thoughts were based on What I saw 20 years ago here in Iowa. I also said I hoped it wasn't true. Dolph, I apologize to you if you consider what I said a confirmation of the Roop's charge. It wasn't. However, the tone of your posts over the years concerning this matter led me to consider it as an issue on more than one occasion, and i won't lie about my own thoughts. You certainly have the right to call me out for it.

SF86-you are right that before charges like that are made the person making them better be sure of it. What we may be missing here is that-whether this is an appropriate forum for such a discussion or not, 'the Roop" was brave enough to address it based on his perception, and certainly such an open forum has given Dolph an opportunity to respond in kind.

Dolph, you are now engaged in that pursuit as you should be, and i will certainly give you the benefit of the doubt. All I know about the "Beloit situation" is what i see when Grinnell plays Beloit. Coach Youngblood is always well prepared, always has a great gameplan, and seems to be able to communicate to his players what he wants from them. It is hard for me to believe that he doesn't comport himself the same way everywhere Beloit plays-including at home. I cannot, however speak to any problems related to admissions or recruitment. I know of only one recruit who considered BC and decided not to attend there. He loved Youngblood, but didn't care for Beloit. It happens everywhere.

[systemfan86]

SF86-you are right that before charges like that are made the person making them better be sure of it. What we may be missing here is that-whether this is an appropriate forum for such a discussion or not, 'the Roop" was brave enough to address it based on his perception, and certainly in such an open forum has given Dolph an opportunity to respond in kind.

To use your phrase, I really hope that the charge was made with a great deal of consideration. Otherwise, the "McCarthyism tactics" is a valid comparison because being labeled as a racist is a 'guilty until proven innocent" type of charge. Dolph would have to prove he's not a racist rather than having the person making the charge being required to have solid proof.

Either way, I think there were quite a few more tactful ways to raise the issue.

I lived in Iowa during the Raveling years. I wouldn't be so crass as to say his race wasn't an issue for some/many, but neither was it the only issue. He was an odd personality. My final opinion on him went something like "I would love to have George Raveling as a recruiter and Tom Davis (Raveling's successor) as the guy to coach the players." If you combined the two coachs' talents, you had a great D1 coach. I base that on the evidence that Tom Davis's best team was made up of Raveling recruits. I hope and trust that doesn't earn me a label as a racist.

[d3bbfan]

youngblood has had a team in the conf tourny. 01-02 i believe

[hjmphelp]

SF86-
So what were the other main issues with Raveling? He couldn't win under the withering pressure which started before he even got here. And, if you will recall, the press and every local pundit with or without credentials made race or idiosyncracy an issue. "1st black coach in Iowa...he better be able to recruit good black players...he won't be able to recruit good white players from small towns..why does he wear sweats and not suits..." and so on. All heightened by the fact that he followed God..er I mean Lute Olson into Iowa. Iowa had never been close to the Final Four before Olson got here, and he left immediately following that appearance. Then Raveling was supposed to magically duplicate that performance IMMEDIATELY! Also, if you will recall, the stories of harassing phonecalls and letters started leaking out way before Raveling had his first game under the belt.

Why was Raveling considered an odd personality? Was it based on things like Sweats, 1 minute soundbites in the press, and distortion of everything that happened under his watch including his health problems which some even accused him of manufacturing?

You are certainly right that Race wasn't the only issue, but it was THE overriding issue from the beginning, in my opinion. Davis took 'em to the tourney consistently, but never got them to the same level they achieved that first year. He lasted a long time without pressure and wasn't questioned until late in his iowa career.

Covert Racism is hard to pin down, and as white folks in a very white state, we aren't  really aware of the insidious nature of racism including statements that I would be so bold as to classify 'so-called' innocent remarks. We shrug them off because they don't affect us. Until you get the chance to experience racism first hand and on a regular basis, it is hard to grasp.

In my opinion, Raveling was a great coach who was never given a fair chance.

One last interesting sidelite (to me anyway): The Des Moines Register ran an article Sunday (page 1; Iowa Life section) concerning "Sundown Towns" based on a new book by James Loewen. The article tells of communities all over the country that had laws on the books keeping people of color out of town after sundown. Few of these communities existed in the south where racism was up front. Many if not most of them existed in the midwest where racism was (and remains) covert. Right here in Iowa there were communites that enforced "Sundown" laws regularly and vociferously until the mid 40's, and a few that kept them on the books and actually used them until the mid 80's! Yes, the mid 1980's! Right here in Iowa! Taylor County! New Market, Iowa! George Raveling's time here!

[thevicar]

Lawrence moves up to number three and garners two first place votes while Carroll finally cracks the top 25! A good week at the polls for the MWC!

[systemfan86]

youngblood has had a team in the conf tourny. 01-02 i believe

Beloit did tie for fourth in the conference with two other teams in 00-01, so they may have won the tie breaker.

http://www.midwestconference.org/mbasketball/2000overallstats.html#conf.std

Of course, they were 10-12 for the season, so it's not as if they were a powerhouse.

[Pat Coleman]

Lawrence as the last unbeaten men's team in college basketball will be noted briefly in tomorrow's USA Today, currently on p. 6C (sports section). Tharp is quoted.

Just an FYI from an insider.

[diehardfan]

woo! 

[the game]

63-131. That's below .333 for his career.  63-131 is downright disgraceful. Let's get one thing straight. BC did reach conference tourney in 2000-2001, but lost to grinnell in opening game. Youngblood has ONLY ONE season over .500 13-10 (2001-2002). That team should of reached the NCAA tournament. That is a year BC dropped the ball. Since then it's been down hill.
It is unexcusable to have the best player in the league and arguablt the school's history and not reach the conference tourney. 2-5 in the league does not look good right now. Looking closely at the situation, BC has traditionally struggled badly in close games. How does a team loose so many close games. Could be poor coaching or poor play. I think there's been a combo of both. In youngbloods defense it has not helped to have a rotating coaching staff. B. Mercado, Johnny V. , Todd K. Give me a break. I guess if you you let jokes coach your players you have to expect your team to be the same.  
It looks as  if new AD is looking to make moves to get BC out of the dump. New soccer, football, women's basketball, volleyball, softball. (some of those were for unfortunate defections) HOWEVVVVER)  If there's another coach who should have the suit case out it should be youngblood. He's  got 9 games to turn 2-5(MWC) into 9-7with Lawrence, ripon and carroll still on the schedule.
Let us pray.