MBB: Midwest Conference

[mwc4life]

"I haven't seen Grotberg in person yet, but it seems to me that 30-35 points in 18 minutes could translate to 30ppg in 36 minutes in a different system.  I think he'd be scoring like this no matter where he played, unless he was on an exceptionally deep, experienced team."

Hoops fan~

Do you really believe this?  The second I read this statement I thought no-way!!! 30 a game?  I personally haven't seen Grotberg play yet and if he's the second coming of Steve Wood then so be it and I will eat humble pie, but let's not get John Grotberg crazy now.  Falco had it right at maaaaybe 18 a/game.  But just look at his stats and what he is allowed to do on the court:

Dec. 2nd Beloit   John Grotberg.......    8-21
Dec. 3rd Ripon   John Grotberg....... *  7-19
Jan 7th   IC          John Grotberg....... * 10-23
Jan. 10th  MC     John Grotberg.......   15-33   
Jan.  13th  LU     John Grotberg....... * 10-29   
Jan.  14th   ST.N  John Grotberg           9-18
Jan.  21st  LFC    John Grotberg.......    8-29   
Jan.   24th  Knox  John Grotberg.......   13-30   

I don't know how you can last an entire season without your arm falling off with all the shots he takes.  While some games he has shot near 50% from the floor which is pretty good, but taking all those shots isn't realistic...it looks more like Kobe Bryants attempts....this it what bothers me about the system and then trying to speculate how it would turnover in a normal basketball system.  It's real easy to shoot without pressure when you knowingly have 30 attempts to take a game.  

[viking68]

I saw the Cornell - GC game last year, but didn't get over to see it this year. Yeah, they definitely were very different. Our men's team is struggling this year, but I'm confident we'll turn the corner. Coach DeGeorge was an assistant under Tharp when I was in school at Lawrence and I think he will get things going. They have some really good freshmen this year.

I remember McClanahan (incidentally an assistant this year) had about 40 points in the game last year.

[viking68]

Everything is cyclical.  All because Lawrence has been a "powerhouse" the last two years, doesn't mean their going to dominate forever.  I mean, Beloit may be looked upon as a weak team now, but weren't they dominant back in the days? 

I agree, but that's the point. Some years, all of the divisions could be really competitive, while others, you could have 5 weaklings (or 1 powerhouse and 4 scrubs). Look at the Big 12 in football...

I just think it is more likely for there to be competitive inbalance with divisional play than when you have one conference w/o divisions. With divisions, I think there is more of a chance that you would end up with teams in the national tourney that don't deserve to be there.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Like I said, "unless he was on an exceptionally deep, experienced team."  If he's at a top 25 school playing 36 minutes a game in a traditional system, no he's not going to get those shots.  But, if he's a the #1 option on a team with strong support (like GC) in a traditional system, he still could get 20-25 shots per game and 30 on a hot night, especially as a guard who can create his own shot.  On top of that, he would probably be getting better looks in a traditional system.  I equate GC scoring to about twice what would occur in a traditional system.  So if you cut his numbers in half, that's what he could do in a traditional system; however then he's only playing 18 minutes per game, so you have to double that and it turns out the same.

Sure, as a freshman in a traditional system, he gets less minutes, but if he's on a team where they need him to be the #1 option (like he is now), then I can seem him putting up comparable numbers.

On the other hand, if he were on the GC team of two years ago, he wouldn't be doing what he's doing now anyway.  It's about the personnel on the team.  Give the same personnel issues and more minutes, I don't see him having much trouble doing what he's doing now.

[Greek Tragedy]

I'd like to hear other people's views--I know there are some WIAC lurkers around--would a WIAC school consider a guy like Tharp and if they did, would he want to go there and why?    Economics?  Budgets are getting tight everywhere unless you are D1.

Not to speculate what's going to open or what's not, but I know there have been rumblings in Eau Claire and players quitting because they didn't get along with the coach.  I guess Eau Claire would be a challenge and they used to be real good, so it's not a total dump to go there.  I think Superior has an interim coach, but have no idea why anyone in their right mind would go there!    Whitewater, Oshkosh, River Falls and Stout all have long time coaches that probably aren't going anywhere.  Point, La Crosse and Platteville all have fairly new coaches.

[mwc4life]

Hoops Fan,

Stop arguing with yourself...and argue with me!!!

Look, your theory has a lot of holes.  I don't know of many D3 bball players that average in the high 20's or in the 30's.  Unless Grotberg is some unreal player that I don't know about that chose Grinnell for its fun, team-oriented style of play, then I don't see that being possible.  Remember, Grotberg is surrounded by players that are all threats to hit an outside shot.  It is literally chaos out there because the Grinnell players will do anything and shoot anything.  The System provides him with open looks and a no-concious attitude which if anything helps your shooting %.  I'm not saying this kid isn't a player or couldn't play for a more traditional style team, but seriously think about what you're saying.  A guy like Becker who is un-guardable one on one, only averaged 20 a game and he was the conference's POY.

[Early]

Hoops Fan,

A guy like Becker who is un-guardable one on one, only averaged 20 a game and he was the conference's POY.

Dang!  You beat me to the punch there. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Granted, I haven't seen him play, so I'm going on a lot of hypotheticals here.  I might understand more after seeing him play.  Jeff says he passed up some mid-level D1s for Grinnell; if that's true, I have to assume his talent and ability is at the level of the best players in the MWC in recent years.

If I see things in his game that lead me to believe otherwise I'll let you know, but what I've heard he seems to be a top talent.  Again, it would have to be a team where he could be the #1 scorer and get all those shots within the context of the team offensive, but I'm just saying that he could do it.

Seeing is believing and I'll assess his skills this weekend.  If I feel like he couldn't opperate in a traditional system that same way he does at GC, I'll change my tune.  But, if everything I'm hearing about the kid is true, I think he is just as talented, if not moreso than any top player in the last few years.  Remember, he is only a freshman.

[systemfan86]

Unless Grotberg is some unreal player that I don't know about that chose Grinnell for its fun, team-oriented style of play...

I haven't seen him first hand, but those on the board who have sound mighty impressed...you might want to wait until you do see him play to make your comment.

A guy like Becker who is un-guardable one on one, only averaged 20 a game and he was the conference's POY.

Then isn't your point that no one would likely average 30? It isn't really about Grotberg at that point is it?

One more thing, is one side of the argument saying he could average 30 and the other side arguing he would not? I think it's hard to argue that any player would average 30 because there are so many factors involved in doing it. That's different than saying that in the right situation a player could average 30.

[hjmphelp]

viking68-
DeGeorge was an assistant at Grinnell several years ago too. With Woody and Choke on the bench with him last year, he really had a leg up.

Several thoughts on the Grotberg discussion from someone who has seen him in 13 or 14 games now. He is a very consistent player doing exactly what he is asked to do. Several things make him special. He has an uncanny ability to get to the basket no matter who or how many are guarding him. He still makes freshman mistakes, but they are getting fewer and are less dramatic. His % is low at times because he has taken a few shots where he should probably dish back out. That gets closer to being fixed every game. He is just so smooth and tricky that maybe he should have the green light to keep taking those questionable shots, IMHO. His defense gets better every game as well. I know some of you won't buy it, but the defense is as hard to learn as the offense is. he is clearly beginning to make a difference on the back side of the court.

I have to disagree with Hoops Fan a bit though. 2 years ago he most certainly would have been involved in the second line with as many playing minutes as Wood had running the 1st. i think he would have had a chance to put up the same kind of numbers because his role would have been the same on that line as it is with the 1st line this year. I almost shudder to think where GC could have gone with two scorers like that on the same squad leading two different lines. Still kind of difficult to say what he would do in a traditional style, but i guarantee he would do what is asked of him...over and over again.

I also think that he is ahead of Wood's developmental pace. He seems to underestand the system better that any 1st year - outside of Jr who could damn near coach this team - since Brands. Four years is a long time to maintain that kind of intensity, but when you look at the consistency so far this year you have to think he can continue the pace. He would be a difference maker on any team in any D3 league, he is that good.

Hoops Fan, i can hardly wait to show this team off to you. The TV game didn't do it justice. Shame that Nordlund can't play, but this 1st year class is so explosive that I would NEVER rule out a couple of great wins against ranked teams. I know the effort will be extreme and no matter what, you will be entertained. I'll just smile for now because I know you will be seeing one of the best 1st year players in D3 tomorrow. Im just gonna let Jon be the one to convince you!

[Old Fighting Scot]

the only players at GC that would be able to get even 20 a game anywhere else in our conference played in the mid 90's (fs13-ya feel me?).  not even the illustrious scuba steve would have got 20 a game if he played in a "normal" concept....

this system creates situations to maximize a players strengths, thus the reason why the 16 yr old pre-med major with pipe cleaners for arms still scores 8pts a game and is considered a "threat" or at least someone you HAVE to guard or he'll hurt you.

[hjmphelp]

BTW-
PLEASE try to play Grotberg on-on-one! I can smell the smoke right now!

[systemfan86]

I'll just smile for now because I know you will be seeing one of the best 1st year players in D3 tomorrow.

I know that this is going to stimulate the gag reflect in a lot of members of the board, but I think you should expand that comment to say he'll being seeing one of the most productive 1st year classes in D3.

I'm comfortable saying that they are the most productive freshman class in the MWC.

[hjmphelp]

OFS-

hahahahahahahahahaha!





don't make me laugh

[hjmphelp]

No one could stop Wood when he was playing 19 minutes a game. What makes you think you could of stopped him if he was playing  35???

Nordlund could put up 20 for anyone in the D3 world even thought he didn't do it here. He adapted his game and had the skills to play the whole court. His main role here was on the defensive end! Set him down low and let him play trad ball and he would have made you all realize what a special talent he was.