MBB: Midwest Conference

[systemfan86]

Just as a point of reference, Maclin of Knox scores the highest percentage of his team's points in the league at 28.6%. Grotberg ranks third (percentage wise) amongst the leading scorers of each team with 25.6%. Hinz is second with 26.7%.

My point? If you are the leading scorer on your team, you're going to get (on average) better than 20% of your team's points. The biggest reason the OFS might be right is not because the GC players don't have the talent, but because most MWC teams' average score is in the 70's and 20-25% of that is less than 20. Very few players in the MWC average 20/game. Only 3 players are doing it this year.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm not sure where all the system bias is coming from at this point?

Let's do it in reverse.  Kyle Myrick at Lincoln is actually leading the nation in scoring right now, with 31.1ppg.  He takes 26 shots per game in 38 mins.  If he were to join the GC team (and I chose him because he is a shooter, playing Grotberg's position; I wanted to use Braier, but that's apples and oranges) he would still probably get 26 shots per game on average and score about 31 per.  By your logic, he should score at least 40 ppg in 20 mins per game in the system because it is playing to his strengths.  I'm pretty sure if you asked Lincoln how they play this year, a lot of it has to do with Myrick's strengths.  In fact, every coach pretty much plays to their players' abilities or else they only recruit players who will flourish in their system.  It just doesn't make sense that the system would have such an impact on scoring.  It's individual shots per game that really matter.

[systemfan86]

One more...

the only players at GC that would be able to get even 20 a game anywhere else in our conference played in the mid 90's (fs13-ya feel me?).  not even the illustrious scuba steve would have got 20 a game if he played in a "normal" concept....

In the last 5 seasons, only 6 non-GC players (seasons) have averaged over 20 points a game, and no more than 2 non-GC players have done it in a single season.

Soooooooo...
What exactly is your point OFS?

[hjmphelp]

Maybe your question should be "WHERE exactly is your point?"


I think I know.

[jeffdc]

this system creates situations to maximize a players strengths, thus the reason why the 16 yr old pre-med major with pipe cleaners for arms still scores 8pts a game and is considered a "threat" or at least someone you HAVE to guard or he'll hurt you.

He's 17 now....

[mwc4life]

OK guys,

I guess this is where our opinions differ.  This is where my opinion stems from actually having played the game, and having played against Wood and the system.  I don't think you Grinnell fans know just how hard it is to guard Grinnell because of the frantic back and forth pace...and what I mean by "know" is having experienced it first hand.  You get hacked and trapped and fouled...trying to break the press, the half-court traps...and after you break the press and hopefully score, you are FRANTICALLY running back to somehow find your man (who probably just subbed out on the last dead ball) who you are now closing out on and is going by you....or he dishes for an open look.  One thing has been proven...the system works, but for you guys to sit here and tell me that a Freshman or anyone in that system will pop up huge numbers in a regular setting...its just not that likely.  My point with BECKER (who was good enough to play Basketball at UW-Mil and then transfer to Ripon...so a D1 prospect similiar to Grotberg's situation) is that he didn't average but 20 a game...and he tore it up....he made people look silly...two or three people...and averaged 20.  I have no problem with Grotberg, he sounds like he will be devestating for Grinnell for years to come, but this crazy scoring talk is just foolish....The guy shoots close to 30 shots a game!!! that's crazy!

Systemfan86- I say the same thing to you then....And plus there are a hand-full of players...Baird, MaGillis, Johnson, Drury that COULD average 30 pts a game if put on a bad team that let you shoot 25-30 times a game and ran you off screens all night...I'm saying on a NORMAL, DECENT team, it's hard for me to believe that ANY guy could average 30/game.  

[Old Fighting Scot]

2.Jason Maclin-KC.......... JR  8   61   17   44  183  22.9
3.Josh Hinz-BC............. SR  8   67    7   38  179  22.4
4.Nate Drury-CC............ JR  8   57   26   28  168  21.0
5.Bo Johnson-RC............     8   54   17   26  151  18.9
6.Brian Schmitting-RC......     8   53    0   27  133  16.6
7.Kyle MacGillis-LU........ SR  8   40   16   32  128  16.0
8.Jeff Zick-KC............. SR  8   40   12   32  124  15.5
  Pete Jennings-IC......... JR  6   40    0   13   93  15.5
10.Chris Braier-LU.......... SR  8   49    3   20  121  15.1
11.Greg Klos-LFC............ SR  8   42   25   10  119  14.9


how many of you would take grotberg over #5-11? Grotberg would have to be better than all of these guys if he was still going to get 20 a game outside of the system, im going to assume that most of you would take johnson or even klos over grotberg. three guys (3!!!!!) who do not play at GC avg. over twenty a game.  that is my point, just b/c he lights it up in the system doesnt mean he can just light it up, i thought u system fans would know this by now.  

look at the guys who dont get 20 a game in the MWC, that is what makes it easy for me to say grotberg probably wouldnt either.

[jeffdc]

...I'm saying on a NORMAL, DECENT team, it's hard for me to believe that ANY guy could average 30/game. 

uh, is this where we've ended up? going back to the old 'Grinnell isn't normal' thing? I admit, 'Grinnell isn't decent' is a new one. I guess the correct way to say it is we're indecent?    Maybe we should take that as a compliment....

as we make our way to the tourney 

[systemfan86]

Sorry, have to get this last one in...

...of those 6 seasons, none came from a player from a school other than Ripon, Knox, Beloit, or St. Norbert.

So OFS claim that only 1 player from GC could average 20 points a game for another MWC team is still (apparently) better than what one could say for Larry, Carroll, Lake Forest, Monmouth, or IC.

THAT's my point , mwc4life. Don't set up a standard and apply it to one team when so few players from other teams accomplish that measure. I'll agree that number of shots taken has a huge effect - by definition it HAS to - but if that's the measure, don't extrapolate that to mean that the GC players lack the talent to play in other systems. It's an (apparently) impossible standard to meet.  

[hjmphelp]

dc-
actually he is now 18 and I wouldn't want those 'toothpick arms' anywhere near my teeth.

OFS is beginning to ramp up the malarky quotient again! Most of those guys are forwards! And yes, I would certainly take Grotberg over any of 'em. I think the California sun is frying yer noggin again!

mwc4life-
were you a theatre major or a politician? Pretty melodramatic statement doncha think? Of course I wouln't know because I didn't play against it.      

[thevicar]

LU is featured on ESPN.com this week in their page 2 section. Check the college hoops report card.

[mwc4life]

Jeffp~ the whole "decent" comment was not directed towards Grinnell who I believe is a very good team this year.  The "normal" comment was directed towards Grinnell who you have to admit plays an abnormal style of basketball....no punches are being thrown...just listen to my experiences and players that I know who have experienced Grinnell and take my comments for whatever worth you want....maybe since you've been around Grinnell and have followed them for so long that you feel you indeed "know" exactly what goes on in a given game...but I doubt it.  Theatre major...no...English major...minor in education and leadership studies....but I did publish something once!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

First, you can't compare guards to forwards.  You just can't.

Second, I agree that the system is hard to play against and that in Grinnell didn't play that way in favor a more traditional style, they would not be as good.

However, neither of those statements transfer into "the players couldn't score as much elsewhere."  I'll give you the fact that guys number 9-20 or however many there are would do much worse at other schools, frankly because half of them wouldn't be on the team.

If Grinnell's top 8 players were forced into a traditional system, yes they wouldn't be all that good as a team, but to say Grotberg couldn't score as many as he does now is just rediculous.  I think he would probably score less against Larry in a traditional system than he will tomorrow against them.  But at the same time, he might score more points against lesser opponents than he does now, as the GC scoring tends to get spread out better when they play weaker opponents.

The question we still haven't had answered yet is if you've seen Grotberg play yet.  I haven't, but to me the numbers add up: he'd score half as many points per minute in a normal system, but play twice as many minutes, therefore remaining at that level.  If you haven't seen him, you have no business saying otherwise; if you have seen him, well then we'll probably not convince each other.

[Old Fighting Scot]

always amazing to hear how fantastic everyplayer to ever put on a GC uni could get 30 just by stepping on the court....  thats just idiotic, why dont u try to reverse the question and ask how many players on other teams would be getting thirty a night in "the system."

if grotberg is a good player, fantastic (i havent seen him play), but dont try and say b/c he scores in the system he can score for anyone, that is just ridiculous.  ive seen tape of brands and deikmann, those guys could play, GC hasnt had anyone like those two, since those two (PERIOD).  those two coulda got theirs anywhere they played.  scuba steve could play and i think he would have only been in the 15-18 a night range.  u pio's have to get the stick out of your a**es, just b/c someone says a guy getting 31 a night (while playing 1-on-1 and shooting numerous open looks for 20 minutes a night against tired and frazzled opponents and a green light to put it up 30 times if need be) wouldnt get 30 somewhere else, is not the same thing as saying the guy couldnt play.  i would guess grotberg didnt get 20 a game in h.s. so what makes you think he would get 20 a game in one of the best D3 (very top heavy admittedly) Conferences in america?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

how many players on other teams would be getting thirty a night in "the system."

I addressed this already, please scroll down.  In fact, I think its the most valid point.